How does a 15 HCP play the 15th at Augusta?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have someone with a brain explain that with you

Patrick,

Please explain this sentence to me.

WHY ?

WHY waste my time ?

You don't have the mental capacity to understand the answer.

Thanks

[Tim_Weiman]

Mark Pearce,

I agree with your assessment that not all 15 HCPs have the same strengths and weaknesses in their game. However, I would also argue that very few 15 HCPs would find the third shot at Augusta #15 ho hum, to say the least. It is a very difficult shot even for much better players.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Pearce,

I agree with your assessment that not all 15 HCPs have the same strengths and weaknesses in their game. However, I would also argue that very few 15 HCPs would find the third shot at Augusta #15 ho hum, to say the least. It is a very difficult shot even for much better players.

Tim,

If some of the best golfers in the world are telling you that it's a difficult shot, and if some of the best golfers in the world can't execute the shot, that's all you need to know

[Steve Burrows]

Sometimes a player will hit the shot in the water; sometimes the ball will go over the green; sometimes the ball will stay on the green.  Obviously 15-handicappers have pulled off the shot before during member and guest play, and obviously they have failed to execute the shot.  Same goes at the professional level during The Masters.  Not sure it requires a 16 page thread to establish that the percentage of success tends to decrease as the handicap increases.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sometimes a player will hit the shot in the water; sometimes the ball will go over the green; sometimes the ball will stay on the green.  Obviously 15-handicappers have pulled off the shot before during member and guest play, and obviously they have failed to execute the shot.  Same goes at the professional level during The Masters.  Not sure it requires a 16 page thread to establish that the percentage of success tends to decrease as the handicap increases.

Steve,

I stated that in reply # 344 on page 14, since some didn't have the common sense to recognize the obvious

[ed_getka]

I don't have time to read 16 pages so this idea may have been mentioned already. I would think that the best way for a 15 to approach the green would be from the second cut of the right rough. That eliminates the intimidating tight downhill lie in the fairway by getting some grass under the ball which generally seems to increase the confidence of higher handicaps. Being in the right rough also gives you a bit more green depth to work with since you are coming from an angle instead of straight into the green and I would imagine there are very few 15 hcp's that hook their wedges (assuming a righty).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,

Not really.

Hitting from the right rough to a green that slopes significantly away from you, makes for a difficult shot, and the green gets narrower as it falls away from you.

In addition, a 15 doesn't possess the ability to precisely place his second shot to the position you indicate

[ed_getka]

Ed,

Not really.

Hitting from the right rough to a green that slopes significantly away from you, makes for a difficult shot, and the green gets narrower as it falls away from you.

In addition, a 15 doesn't possess the ability to precisely place his second shot to the position you indicate

Who said it would be his second shot?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,

Not really.

Hitting from the right rough to a green that slopes significantly away from you, makes for a difficult shot, and the green gets narrower as it falls away from you.

In addition, a 15 doesn't possess the ability to precisely place his second shot to the position you indicate

Who said it would be his second shot?

That's true and laying up on a 15's 3rd shot might be a very good decision.

You can see how steeply sloped # 15 fairway is when the camera is shooting # 15 green from behind # 15 green, and you can see how steep the fall away behind the green is when the camera is shooting the green from the front right.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark Pearce,

I agree with your assessment that not all 15 HCPs have the same strengths and weaknesses in their game. However, I would also argue that very few 15 HCPs would find the third shot at Augusta #15 ho hum, to say the least. It is a very difficult shot even for much better players.

I challenge anyone to find a post where I said it would be easy.  My point is that it's a shot some 15 handicappers would find easier than others.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Pearce,

I agree with your assessment that not all 15 HCPs have the same strengths and weaknesses in their game. However, I would also argue that very few 15 HCPs would find the third shot at Augusta #15 ho hum, to say the least. It is a very difficult shot even for much better players.

I challenge anyone to find a post where I said it would be easy. 
My point is that it's a shot some 15 handicappers would find easier than others.

But not easier than a PGA Tour Pro playing in the tournament.

The PGA Tour Pros who have played the course stated how difficult that shot is

The PGA Tour Pros who are currently playing the course have hit that shot into..
 the water and over the green.

A 15 handicap, irrespective of their micro game is I'll equipped to play that shot, especially when it counts in a medal play round.

I've played that shot more than a few times when I was a decent golfer and it's very difficult.

Anyone who claims otherwise is a moron !

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

You have repeatedly said:

That approach from 30-50-80 yards is dicey, really dicey.

Just curious whether your feet were wet when you hit the 30 yard shot?  Or were you in over your head in the pond when you hit it?  Or was the pin on the front fringe?   

__________________________________


Also curious how the 15's deal wit a ball dunked in the pond?  There doesn't appear to be any way to avoid having to execute the shot across the pond at some point before or after a penalty(ies).  Any idea how many tries the archetypal 15 takes before actually getting across safely on this difficult shot?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It's so sad to see so many people I have met through GCA, possibly played with, and certainly enjoyed their company, bickering like this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Not to fret.

Bryan achieved colossal moron status when we met at Streamsong two years ago.

Bryan.

From just short of the water to the front of the green on # 15 it's 30 yards.
From a little further back to the center it's 50 yards, and
from further back it's 80 yards.

Today, an announcer stated that from 100 yards, it's one of the most evil shots in golf.

You'll notice that most of the Pros lay up to 80-100 yards in order to hit a full shot.
They don't want to get too close for a number of reasons, one of which is that the closer you get, the harder that shot can be.

Hope that helps further your education on GCA and how to play golf 

[Jim Nugent]

Where Tiger took his drop on #15 last year didn't look too sloped.  Was that an example of the camera flattening out the terrain? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where Tiger took his drop on #15 last year didn't look too sloped.  Was that an example of the camera flattening out the terrain? 

Jim,

I think his distance was 87 yards.

I also think he dropped the ball several yards back to get a flatter lie.

The camera is deceptive.

The best views of the slope are when they shoot from behind # 15 green back up the fairway.
Then you get a good feel for the slope of that fairway.

You can also see it in the sideview at the bottom of the program page.

You don't think all of the Pros and announcers have been referencing a phantom downslope do you ?

[ed_getka]

What would you estimate the elevation change is from the cluster of trees that jut out into the fairway on the left  down to the water? Is it a fairly continuous slope or are there plateaus that a golfer could try to get to?

[Patrick_Mucci]

What would you estimate the elevation change is from the cluster of trees that jut out into the fairway on the left  down to the water?

Is it a fairly continuous slope or are there plateaus that a golfer could try to get to?

Ed,

My guess is 25 feet or more, mostly continuous

[Jim Nugent]

You don't think all of the Pros and announcers have been referencing a phantom downslope do you ?[/color]

Not at all.  Just wondering if some spots are flatter, and not so hard to play off.  Tiger's drop area looked flat, and I don't recall the ball rolling once it hit the ground.  Deceptive camera or flatter ground?

btw,I thought Tiger took his drop two yards behind, because he knew he hit his 3rd shot too far.  So he backed up 2 yards and hit his 5th shot 2 yards shorter as well.  Net 4 yards less.  Worked perfectly: ball stopped pin high.  That's also why I think his 3rd might have gone over the green, if it hadn't hit the flag. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Read the New York Times article.

It describes the slope as "severe"

I've played it numerous times and would call it "pronounced" but not "precipitous"

But, if you want to continue to hallucinate and declare that it's flat, by all means, continue to delude yourself

[Mark Bourgeois]

What would you estimate the elevation change is from the cluster of trees that jut out into the fairway on the left  down to the water?

Is it a fairly continuous slope or are there plateaus that a golfer could try to get to?

Ed,

My guess is 25 feet or more, mostly continuous

That's interesting. Last week, seeking to prove the earth was round, I calculated the slope (in degrees and percent) using the 1932 topo. Taking the crest of the hill (about where today's left-side trees are) as the starting point and the stream as the bottom, I estimated the drop to be ~28'. I would have been surprised to learn the club regraded that slope -- certainly if they somehow made it flatter -- but it would seem the slope indeed is unchanged.

It's so sad to see so many people I have met through GCA, possibly played with, and certainly enjoyed their company, bickering like this.

Hi Mark,

Look on the bright side: this is the only exercise some of us get! You know:




 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The fairway at the top is about 25 feet above the green, which is about 6 to 8 feet above the fairway at the tee side of the pond, so, I'd say somewhere around 30 or more feet.

Paul Azinger, who's played in the Masters 15 times and is an announcer declared that the third shot off the downslope is the most difficult shot on the course.

Sergio had similar comments.

Another announcer, Curtis Strange, hit one in the water in 1985 when he finished second.

Andy North stated, " But the downslope for a third shot is SEVERE"

So Jim, who's taking halllucinagenics, all these guys or you ?

[Doug Siebert]

What's the downslope like from just a few feet away from the pond?  How hard would it be for a 15 handicap to hit that shot onto the green (somewhere, maybe not very close to the hole?)

Maybe the ideal strategy is to tell them to ignore the pond, and don't lay up even from 200+ yards.  If they hit into the water When they hit into the water they could drop it just on the other side of the pond and play from there.  Pros want to lay back 80 yards so they can spin it and go for tight pins, but 15 handicaps aren't so restricted.

I think I'd probably play it this way myself to be honest.  I sure as hell wouldn't give up what would almost certainly be my one chance playing ANGC to lay up on 15 and leave me a shot that makes even pros look silly, even knowing my chances of clearing the pond off a hanging lie from 200+ were not all that great.  It'd be a lot more fun when I told the story a hundred times in years hence to talk about how I hit my 4 iron into the water like Greg Norman did in '86, rather than how I fatted a wedge into the pond after a cowardly lay up

[Patrick_Mucci]

What's the downslope like from just a few feet away from the pond? 

Inclined toward the water

How hard would it be for a 15 handicap to hit that shot onto the green (somewhere, maybe not very close to the hole?)

Very, very hard

Maybe the ideal strategy is to tell them to ignore the pond, and don't lay up even from 200+ yards.  If they hit into the water When they hit into the water they could drop it just on the other side of the pond and play from there. 

".... drop it just on the other side of the pond and play from there."  ?  ?  ?

Under which rule/s ? ?  ?

Pros want to lay back 80 yards so they can spin it and go for tight pins, but 15 handicaps aren't so restricted.

Right, they can't spin it, and, you tend to get less spin on that shot as it gets shorter and shorter.

I think I'd probably play it this way myself to be honest. 


Play it what way ?

I sure as hell wouldn't give up what would almost certainly be my one chance playing ANGC to lay up on 15 and leave me a shot that makes even pros look silly, even knowing my chances of clearing the pond off a hanging lie from 200+ were not all that great. 

You couldn't get within 200 yards of the center of the green with your tee shot.

It'd be a lot more fun when I told the story a hundred times in years hence to talk about how I hit my 4 iron into the water like Greg Norman did in '86, rather than how I fatted a wedge into the pond after a cowardly lay up

So, are you going to hit driver, wedge, 4-iron ?
How are you going to get into position to hit a 200 yard 4-iron for your approach shot ?

[Howard Riefs]

The 15th at ANGC is playing incredibly difficult into the wind this afternoon. Lots of players laying up instead of going for the green in two. Reminded of this long and winding thread that addresses the challenges of that approach shot ...