How does a 15 HCP play the 15th at Augusta?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

For someone who has never played the course, let alone the particular shot from 30-50-80 yards on # 15, whose game is suspect, better to be a "troll" than a pompous, uninformed horse's ass.

[Jason Thurman]

It's spelled A-N-D, not T-H-A-N.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, I disagree strongly with your statements and/or selective cutting and pasting out of context, as with the water back of the green question I was answering.

M, you can disagree with me to your heart's content.

Your own statements on your play of the course contradict your position.

And, nothing was taken out of context.  I excerpted and quoted you word for word and I addressed every quote.
You just don't like the facts, the logic and the reasoned, prudent conclusions that I presented.

Masters veterans and Major winners have stated how difficult that shot is for the PGA Touring Pro, but, you're going to tell us that it's an easy shot for the 15 handicap.

One example of how wrong you are affecting several of your statements. The greens can be soft and fast. That is what I experienced.
Soft and fast and, at least for me, severe slopes.

Stopping a wedge on the green was easy, putting was not.

There's another glaring contradiction.
First you tell us that 15's can't spin their wedges, then you tell us that the greens are super fast and sloped, as # 15 is, but, in the same breath, declare that a 15 can easily hit a green, barely 17 yards in depth, off a downhill lie to a green above them, fronted and backed by water.

And you expect intelligent, prudent people to believe that ?

Especially after you declared that you hit your average drive 250, but, chickened out from 180 yards off a flat lie from an elevated position and didn't try to hit that soft green you keep referencing.  In fact you stated that in addition to being soft, it was 76-82 feet in depth at the point you were aiming for.

Who's B.S.ing whom ?

Or, put another way, talk is cheap.

So, don't tell us what you think a 15 handicap can do when you, an 11-12 handicap who hits his drive 250 on average, chickened out from 180 yards to a soft green from an elevated, flat lie.

I dont need to respond to the rest because anybody reading this thread will understand what I was stating, even if he strongly disagrees with me, which is fine.

We are all entitled to our opinions and we all have different experiences.

Correct.

But, when it came to your moment of truth, in playing # 15, you chickened out from 180 yards, from a flat lie, from an elevated position, to a soft green that you gauged at 76-82 feet in depth.

Actions speak louder than words.

Nothing you can say can alter the decision you made when actually playing # 15

I understand the week before the Masters might be a lot tougher than say November.

And we all have different abilities.

A 180-210 yard shot from a flat lie to me is far tougher than an 80 yard shot from a downhill lie, with a much wider margin of error.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Now you're getting loose with the facts.
Now the 180 yard shot you faced and chickened out on has turned into a 210 yard shot.
How did that happen ?  Where did the extra 30 yards suddenly come from ?
Are we now to doubt the veracity of your stated experience ?
You clearly stated 180 yards.
How convenient of you to now revise the distance to 210

So yes, I chickened out, but enjoyed playing the hole strategically and scored well.

Who goes to Augusta and chickens out from 180 yards from the 15th green ?  From a flat lie elevated well above the green ?

That's like going to Cypress Point and playing safe on # 16.

That's sacrilegious.

But wait, it's more than that.

You, an 11-12 who hits the driver 250 on average, were intimidated and afraid of the consequences of a shot from 180 off of a flat lie from an elevated position.

So, how do you suppose a 15 handicapper would feel from 30-50-80 yards, off a downhill lie, to a narrow green above them with water looming everywhere ?

You seem like one of those, "do as I say, not as I do" guys.

I rest my case......... for now

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's spelled A-N-D, not T-H-A-N.

Jason,

I would stick to picking up tyops since playing golf and understanding architecture are not your fortes

[MClutterbuck]

Patrick, 180-210 covers more than one round. I dont change the facts. And I disagree with your position and how you choose to express it. I disagree with most of your previous post as well. I do enjoy the rest of the posts by others and the various diverse opinions, even when they believe I am wrong. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Guys:

Feels like we have exhausted this topic. The arguments on either side have been expressed several times already.

Being Masters week, can we come up with a new thread and hole to debate?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, 180-210 covers more than one round. I dont change the facts. And I disagree with your position and how you choose to express it. I disagree with most of your previous post as well. I do enjoy the rest of the posts by others and the various diverse opinions, even when they believe I am wrong. 

M,

There's nothing wrong with having different opinions.


You can state that you disagree, in general, with any and all of my posts, but, you haven't offered a substantive, point by point rebuttal to any of them.  And, I used your stated words to refute your own argument.  

Lastly, if the proof is in the pudding/tasting, when it came time for you to step up to the plate, you chickened out and didn't go for the green.

Who goes to Augusta, who hits the ball an average of 250 with their drive, and doesn't go for the 15th green from 180 yards out ?

That tells us everything we need to know about your play and your position on # 15.

Ditto for John Cook's statement.

You were afraid to hit an 180 yard shot, from a flat lie, elevated above the green, to a SOFT green, but, expect a higher handicap, a 15, to hit a shot that John Cook describes as frightening, and you don't see the flaws in and failure of your position ?

I'm satisfied that everyone except a few morons sees the flaws and failure in your position.

Next you'll be telling us what an easy shot it is into # 11 when the hole is cut back left

[Tim_Weiman]

Thought this thread had run its course but the NY Times ran a story this morning on the difficulty of the hole.  (See thread started by David Tepper who provided link to the Times article).

Interesting to note that Paul Azinger describes the third shot on 15 as the toughest shot at Augusta.

Andy North describes the slope at 80-90 yards out as "severe".

Adam Scott notes that Augusta tends to favor a draw, but with the trees a draw can now get a player into trouble.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

Everything I've stated has been supported and reinforced by the NYT article.

What's also gone unnoticed is that the fairways at ANGC are mowed pretty tight all season long, making that little shot from a down hill lie to a sliver of a green, even more difficult.

But, what do I and all of those PGA Tour Pros know compared to people who have never played the course ?


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/sports/golf/masters-dreams-are-dashed-at-augusta-nationals-15th-hole.html?hpw&rref=sports&_r=0

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

Two things:

First, I was interested to see Andy North describe the slope as "severe". I remember having that impression, but it has been five years since I've been to Augusta and I didn't fully trust my memory.

Second, I think the 15th hole has gone through changes that may have influenced perceptions about its difficulty. 30-40 years ago the third shot was always described as very difficult for Masters level players. Then, within the past 10 years or so, we haven't heard this point very much during the Masters telecast.

But, now we have the NY Times article which is a throwback to the 1980s.

Seems like the golf ball technology changed leading far more players to go for the green than 30-40 years ago, essentially minimizing player exposure to the challenge of the third shot. But, then the trees are planted making it more difficult to just bomb away and assume you will be in position to go for the green in two. So, here we are again with the pros taking about how tough the third shot is.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I think the advent of  the Lob Wedge might have helped as well.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tim,

I think the advent of  the Lob Wedge might have helped as well.

So after Dustin Johnson chunked and dunked his wedge on 15 today - he did the same thing last year - here's what Feherty said: "It's on a very steep down slope. The fairways are cut at half an inch. It's an amateur's nightmare...The drop area is of no use."

[BHoover]

I don't see any 15 handicappers in the Masters, so I don't think it matters how they would play 15.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't see any 15 handicappers in the Masters, so I don't think it matters how they would play 15.

Brian,

The 15 handicappers were playing # 15 at ANGC last week and they'll be playing again next week

[Matthew Petersen]

Tim,

I think the advent of  the Lob Wedge might have helped as well.

So after Dustin Johnson chunked and dunked his wedge on 15 today - he did the same thing last year - here's what Feherty said: "It's on a very steep down slope. The fairways are cut at half an inch. It's an amateur's nightmare...The drop area is of no use."

Yeah, he and IBF couldn't stop going on about how absurdly hard that shot is. I had a good laugh in honor of this thread.

[Keith Grande]

Add Phil to the list of chunked wedges today

[Jim Nugent]

MC: the fact that 15 is the number two handicap hole says that ANGC thinks it plays real hard for average players.  The fact that it can also play real hard for scratch players means it is doubly difficult for the bogey player.  What, btw, is #1 handicap there? 

Watching on TV, I imagined the shot to the green -- whether from 200 yards or as a pitch -- would be real, real hard for average players.  If you go over the green, the chip back doesn't look like any picnic either. 

Patrick or anyone: do you think MC is right, that the hole plays a lot harder under Masters-type conditions, than it does most of the time for members? 

[BHoover]

I don't see any 15 handicappers in the Masters, so I don't think it matters how they would play 15.

Brian,

The 15 handicappers were playing # 15 at ANGC last week and they'll be playing again next week

Yes and are they currently clamoring for the hole to be changed? I doubt it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

What makes the shot into # 15 even more difficult is the visual presented to the golfer.

From the golfer's eyes there's nothing to provide any element of framing.

All you see is water with a sliver of land in the middle with a flagstick in it, so there's a significant amount of uncertainty that's created by that visual, when combined with the downslope, tight lie and half shot nature created by the short distance to the flag that makes the shot so difficult.....especially for the higher handicap

[Mark Bourgeois]

I don't see any 15 handicappers in the Masters, so I don't think it matters how they would play 15.

Brian,

The 15 handicappers were playing # 15 at ANGC last week and they'll be playing again next week

Yes and are they currently clamoring for the hole to be changed? I doubt it.

By the way, I doubt we can find a 15 or any other handicap for that matter who would complain about having to hit the shot. That, however, is not because of the architecture but because of the history.

[Mark Pearce]

...The arrogance of so many good players as to how mid 'cappers play is extraordinary.  ...

I started to read the thread, and couldn't believe the ignorance of those posting to it.

Mark nailed it with his post.

Garland,

The "ignorance" is all yours and Marks.

As Bill Parcels stated, "you are what your record says you are"

Or, in golf parlance, "you are what your handicap says you are", unless you're a sandbagger or ego handicap.

One's handicap tells you the basics of one's game, just like one's score indicates how you played on a given day.

Golf is a game with many facets.

Driving well but putting poorly, or putting well but striking it poorly are irrelevant.
It's the number at the end of the round that tells you how you fared playing golf that day.
The intricacies of the individual components are of no consequence.

It's the sum total of your efforts that's the sole determiner.

A contender for the stupidest post yet managed by Pat Mucci.  Of course how the various components of your game are matters to how you play a hole.  My 18 year old son is a 13 handicap.  According to our club's junior team manager, a scratch golfer and veteran of our league team, Cameron has the long game of a scratch or very low single figure golfer but chips and putts like a 24.  He's longer than many of our very low handicap players (one of whom, by the way, who Cameron has played with, is actually playing in this Masters) and hits the ball high, landing softly.  It doesn't take a genius to work out that despite the fact that we have almost the same handicap he plays almost every hole very differently from the way I do.  To deny that, as Pat tries to do, is the very definition of a moron.

[Patrick_Mucci]

...The arrogance of so many good players as to how mid 'cappers play is extraordinary.  ...

I started to read the thread, and couldn't believe the ignorance of those posting to it.

Mark nailed it with his post.

Garland,

The "ignorance" is all yours and Marks.

As Bill Parcels stated, "you are what your record says you are"

Or, in golf parlance, "you are what your handicap says you are", unless you're a sandbagger or ego handicap.

One's handicap tells you the basics of one's game, just like one's score indicates how you played on a given day.

Golf is a game with many facets.

Driving well but putting poorly, or putting well but striking it poorly are irrelevant.
It's the number at the end of the round that tells you how you fared playing golf that day.
The intricacies of the individual components are of no consequence.

It's the sum total of your efforts that's the sole determiner.

A contender for the stupidest post yet managed by Pat Mucci.  Of course how the various components of your game are matters to how you play a hole. 

Mark,

What's stupid is your inability to differentiate the play of a complete round from the play of a single hole.

Have someone who reads with a scintilla of comprehension explain that to you.

 My 18 year old son is a 13 handicap.  According to our club's junior team manager, a scratch golfer and veteran of our league team, Cameron has the long game of a scratch or very low single figure golfer but chips and putts like a 24.  He's longer than many of our very low handicap players (one of whom, by the way, who Cameron has played with, is actually playing in this Masters) and hits the ball high, landing softly.  It doesn't take a genius to work out that despite the fact that we have almost the same handicap he plays almost every hole very differently from the way I do. 

That's totally irrelevant and doesn't change the FACT that he's a 13 handicap.

His play of individual holes is irrelevant, as is his ball flight, distance and chipping, when determine his handicap.
It's his SCORE for all of the 18 holes he's played that determine his handicap

To deny that, as Pat tries to do, is the very definition of a moron.

What's moronic is your failure to understand that the components of your sons game are irrelevant in determining his handicap.

His SCORES, and his SCORES alone are solely responsible for determining his handicap.

Have someone with a brain explain that with you

OR, when you turn in your scores do you include a detailed six page narrative describing every shot ?

Hint:  if you do, nobody reads it, nobody cares.  The only thing that counts in determining his handicap is his score for18 holes

[Mark Pearce]

Pat,

Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me that you are ignoring the fact that this is a thread about how a mid-teens handicapper plays the 15th at ANGC.  It's not about overall score, or anything else.  I always make the mistake of expecting too much from you.  Perhaps one day I'll learn.

[Will Lozier]

Have someone with a brain explain that with you

Patrick,

Please explain this sentence to me.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me that you are ignoring the fact that this is a thread about how a mid-teens handicapper plays the 15th at ANGC. 
Perhaps it shouldn't surprise me that you're ignoring the fact that I was addressing a specific issue raised by another poster

It's not about overall score, or anything else. 

The separate, specific issue was about score

I always make the mistake of expecting too much from you. 
Perhaps one day I'll learn.

Given your mental acuity, that's very doubtful