[Patrick_Mucci]

What 15 handicapper can't hit a ball over a pond with a wedge? I don't know any legit 15 hdcpr who can't. So what's the big deal?

Then you'd have no problem betting $ 10,000, along with a 15 handicapper, that they'd have no problem hitting a 50 yard shot off a down hill lie, to a narrow green that slopes sharply from high right to low left, with the bet contingent on whether or not the 15 handicapper's ball comes to rest on that green ?

It'll be the easiest $ 20,000 I ever made

[JESII]

Pat,

I think the case is made as to the strategic value of the hole for a 15 handicap.

That said, your proposal is ridiculous. Why does it need to stop on the green? Why does it need to be in 1 shot?

How about you giving the 15 handicap a stroke and betting $10,000 against them from 80 - 100 yards in the fairway on that hole? I'll take the 15!

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

I forgot to add something.

Every shot is easy when it doesn't count.

As Bobby Jones said, "There's golf and there's tournament golf"

Playing a casual round is a lark.

But, playing in a medal play qualifier or tournament brings a unique pressure with it.

Hitting that little 50-80 yard wedge, off a downhill lie, to that green in a medal play situation, makes that shot significantly more difficult.

To the point that it would be a knee knocker for a 15 or 11 handicapper.

Pat,

You might have seen I mentioned to Jeff the 8th hole at Pine Valley, another downhill short pitch. The  more I think about it, it is crazy to think such a shot is easy for a mid handicap. Even Bob Lewis, a far more accomplished player than anyone in this discussion told me how challenging the PV shot was for him - a guy who even once played in the Masters.

Personally, I find the PV shot easier than the Augusta shot or at least less intimidating.

You are quite familiar with both. What is your view?

[jeffwarne]

Pat,

I think the case is made as to the strategic value of the hole for a 15 handicap.

That said, your proposal is ridiculous. Why does it need to stop on the green? Why does it need to be in 1 shot?

How about you giving the 15 handicap a stroke and betting $10,000 against them from 80 - 100 yards in the fairway on that hole? I'll take the 15!

You just summed up what I've been trying to say for 8 pages

The caveat would be that presumably it's not automatic for the 15 to be in that position in 2 shots.
Let's not also forget that the shot is quite difficult for the guy WITHOUT a shot, and in this case it could well be a 13 hdcp GIVING the shot

[BCowan]

Jeff,

   Do you think 10 different 15 handi's going around the pond (with the putter) would score better than attempting to play the hole conventionally?  Also taking into account the people aren't good off downhill lies, don't practice them, mentally toast, and they don't know how to set up to them.  

We need a case study.  I was under the impression that TOC had so many ways to play a hole.  

[JESII]

Jeff,

Agree on the 15 working to get to the lay up spot in 2...but I wanted to stack the deck a little against Pat.

Tim,

Interesting comparison to #8 at PV. I'm very familiar with that hole and only know Augusta from TV. If the measurements given earlier for the 15th green are accurate (76 feet deep to 82 feet deep), the safe area at Augusta's hole is 4 or 5 times that of the Pine Valley hole. Sure there's no water at PV8, but the bunkers are virtually impossible to get on the green from for a typical 15 so I'd disagree with your view that PV8 would be an easier task...but that's just me.

[MClutterbuck]

I think we never established if a 15 handicap should par or bogey this hole. I think this is important to the discussion, as it ends up dictating strategy. This probably leads me to a different question, which is, how many greens in regulation would/should a 15 handicap have at ANGC? Probably for a different post.

[Mark Bourgeois]

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

Tim, thanks for posing the question, it's an interesting one.

There's no way around it: today's version is of the Penal School. A pro, a 15, a 30, it doesn't matter: everyone's got to get over the water somehow. If they fail, it's like Bob Jones said: "The difference between a sand trap and water hazard is the difference between a car crash and an airplane crash. You have a chance of recovering from a car crash."

Anyway, will be interesting if we make it two pages in this thread. Can't see much to disagree with here. But, hey, speaking of airplane crashes, this is Golf Club Atlas: it's possible at some point we'll be treated to novel arguments against terms and norms developed by leaders in the field and accepted by the general public for decades. I dunno, stuff like "the hole actually is of the Strategic School" or "there are 'strategies' like putting over the bridge or you can just hit someone on 17 tee then chip through the trees and over the bunker or you can just putt it around the pond and thread the needle between the pond and bunker.' "

You know, the usual stuff for these environs. 

[JESII]

MC,

On paper, obviously a 15 should not expect to par the #2 handicap hole on a course...but we always want to do what we can to best position ourselves for success, right? I wouldn't advise many people to plan from the tee to be short of the pond in 3, would you? Maybe a poor drive results in Plan B, but a 200 yard drive and a 175 second shot down the hill should get me inside 100 yards right?

[MClutterbuck]

MC,

On paper, obviously a 15 should not expect to par the #2 handicap hole on a course...but we always want to do what we can to best position ourselves for success, right? I wouldn't advise many people to plan from the tee to be short of the pond in 3, would you? Maybe a poor drive results in Plan B, but a 200 yard drive and a 175 second shot down the hill should get me inside 100 yards right?

Agreed Jim, even if your drive is at the left side of the FW, you can punch it down to close to 100 yards. The key for me then is to accept you should aim to the right side of the green, even if the pin is way left. If you accept that might lead to a three putt bogey, I think that is the correct strategy for the mid handicapper.

[Kevin_D]

I'm always perplexed by how we talk about this "typical" 15 handicap, as though they are all the same. As I said, I'm a 13 (and was a 20  last year). I can hit it a good distance, drives often 270+, with right conditions (downwind, F&F) will occasionally poke one 3 bills, though I am sometimes wild off the tee.  I am erratic with my iron play (on and off, depending) and suffer from some distance control problems. I might be the worst wedge player (80-120 yards) in America, though I'm decent at pitching and chipping around the green most of the time.  Putting, overall usually ok, except when I get really tentative.  I'm sure I could par, or maybe birdie 15 at Augusta.  Or triple bogey it.  It all depends.

I can imagine many different kinds of 15 handicaps.  There could be the "old man" 15 who hits straight as an arrow but can only hit it 180 yards max. You could be a terrible putter and chipper, and the rest of your game is average. And on and on.  I think all that matters is that these various golfers have the potential to execute the shot - not that they will every time. 

Finally, if I'm ever lucky enough to play at Augusta, I am pretty sure that I will be more nervous than if I were playing in a $10,000 game with $100 in my pocket.

[MClutterbuck]

I'm always perplexed by how we talk about this "typical" 15 handicap, as though they are all the same. As I said, I'm a 13 (and was a 20  last year). I can hit it a good distance, drives often 270+, with right conditions (downwind, F&F) will occasionally poke one 3 bills, though I am sometimes wild off the tee.  I am erratic with my iron play (on and off, depending) and suffer from some distance control problems. I might be the worst wedge player (80-120 yards) in America, though I'm decent at pitching and chipping around the green most of the time.  Putting, overall usually ok, except when I get really tentative.  I'm sure I could par, or maybe birdie 15 at Augusta.  Or triple bogey it.  It all depends.

I can imagine many different kinds of 15 handicaps.  There could be the "old man" 15 who hits straight as an arrow but can only hit it 180 yards max. You could be a terrible putter and chipper, and the rest of your game is average. And on and on.  I think all that matters is that these various golfers have the potential to execute the shot - not that they will every time. 

Finally, if I'm ever lucky enough to play at Augusta, I am pretty sure that I will be more nervous than if I were playing in a $10,000 game with $100 in my pocket.

Agreed on all you said. Just connecting the driver on the 1st tee with several members and guests watching is a monumental task. However, this is a course that does not beat you up and I found you end up focusing really well and playing great. Caddies by the way are a huge help and help you relax, and the experience is enhanced by talking to them and learning from them.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff,

Agree on the 15 working to get to the lay up spot in 2...but I wanted to stack the deck a little against Pat.

Tim,

Interesting comparison to #8 at PV. I'm very familiar with that hole and only know Augusta from TV. If the measurements given earlier for the 15th green are accurate (76 feet deep to 82 feet deep), the safe area at Augusta's hole is 4 or 5 times that of the Pine Valley hole. Sure there's no water at PV8, but the bunkers are virtually impossible to get on the green from for a typical 15 so I'd disagree with your view that PV8 would be an easier task...but that's just me.

Jim,

I think one can certainly debate which shot is tougher - #8 at Pine Valley vs #15 at Augusta. In part it is a question of green size vs water. So, people can differ.

However, I raised the issue because of a conversation with Bob Lewis years ago wherein he talked about how challenging the downhill pitch at PV was. He is no 15 HCP, of course (4 time Walker Cup player, long time Pine Valley course record holder, one time Masters player).

So, if a player of that quality noted the challenge of controlling downhill pitches, why would anyone here question the challenge for a 15 HCP.

IMO, perception of the Augusta shot are heavily influenced by television - it doesn't show the slope at he 80-100 yard mark and today most Masters players go for the green so we don't here the announcers talk about the issue the way they did years ago.

Of course, we always have the odd guy who says "I am a 12 and I hit the green. What's the big deal?"

I hit #8 at Pine Valley both times I played it when I was also about a 12, but that hardly means the shot isn't very difficult for a mid handicap.

Bob Lewis and Pat Mucci have a realistic perspective on these shots, IMO and both are far better than a 15 HCP.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I forgot to add something.

Every shot is easy when it doesn't count.

As Bobby Jones said, "There's golf and there's tournament golf"

Playing a casual round is a lark.

But, playing in a medal play qualifier or tournament brings a unique pressure with it.

Hitting that little 50-80 yard wedge, off a downhill lie, to that green in a medal play situation, makes that shot significantly more difficult.

To the point that it would be a knee knocker for a 15 or 11 handicapper.

Pat,

You might have seen I mentioned to Jeff the 8th hole at Pine Valley, another downhill short pitch. The  more I think about it, it is crazy to think such a shot is easy for a mid handicap. Even Bob Lewis, a far more accomplished player than anyone in this discussion told me how challenging the PV shot was for him - a guy who even once played in the Masters.

Personally, I find the PV shot easier than the Augusta shot or at least less intimidating.

You are quite familiar with both. What is your view?

I used to hit a long iron or 4-wood on # 8 at PV until Jay Sigel told me to hit driver to get to the upslope.

Both shots are dicey, but in different dimensions.

One's narrow the other broad.
One's shallow, the other deep.

And, water seems to be more penal than sand bunkers.

Both shots require concentration and skill under fire.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

Thanks. Between Bob Lewis and Jay Sigel I think there is enough golfing skill and knowledge to understand the challenge of downhill pitch shots.

By the way, I did run into Bob out at NGLA. Man, he is enthusiastic supporter of the Walker Cup!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Thanks. Between Bob Lewis and Jay Sigel I think there is enough golfing skill and knowledge to understand the challenge of downhill pitch shots.

By the way, I did run into Bob out at NGLA. Man, he is enthusiastic supporter of the Walker Cup!

Tim,

I think the Lloyd Mangrum, Sam Snead story tells a lot about how hard golf shots are in Tournament conditions.

Everyone thinks that they can easily hit shots under 100 yards, but, there are some shots that are very difficult.

The approach into # 13 from 30-50-80 yards is so much harder than it looks.

Ditto # 15

Even # 2 from the 30-50-80 yard range is difficult.

Playing off of sidehill or downhill lies to sloped, narrow greens is very difficult under a medal play situation, especially when those greens are fast and firm..

[MClutterbuck]

Pat,

Thanks. Between Bob Lewis and Jay Sigel I think there is enough golfing skill and knowledge to understand the challenge of downhill pitch shots.

By the way, I did run into Bob out at NGLA. Man, he is enthusiastic supporter of the Walker Cup!

Tim,

I think the Lloyd Mangrum, Sam Snead story tells a lot about how hard golf shots are in Tournament conditions.

Everyone thinks that they can easily hit shots under 100 yards, but, there are some shots that are very difficult.

The approach into # 13 from 30-50-80 yards is so much harder than it looks.

Ditto # 15

Even # 2 from the 30-50-80 yard range is difficult.

Playing off of sidehill or downhill lies to sloped, narrow greens is very difficult under a medal play situation, especially when those greens are fast and firm..

Of course these shots are tougher on a Sunday in April than a Tuesday in November

I might be wrong but I found the sidehill lie on 13 much tougher than the gentler downhill lie on 15.

[BHoover]

What 15 handicapper can't hit a ball over a pond with a wedge? I don't know any legit 15 hdcpr who can't. So what's the big deal?

Then you'd have no problem betting $ 10,000, along with a 15 handicapper, that they'd have no problem hitting a 50 yard shot off a down hill lie, to a narrow green that slopes sharply from high right to low left, with the bet contingent on whether or not the 15 handicapper's ball comes to rest on that green ?

It'll be the easiest $ 20,000 I ever made

I'll take the bet, if you can spot me the $10K...I had some check cashing issues this month.  I'm not saying it's an easy shot, but it's a freaking pitching wedge.  We're not talking about hitting a 1 iron off a downhill lie.

[MClutterbuck]

Jeff,

Agree on the 15 working to get to the lay up spot in 2...but I wanted to stack the deck a little against Pat.

Tim,

Interesting comparison to #8 at PV. I'm very familiar with that hole and only know Augusta from TV. If the measurements given earlier for the 15th green are accurate (76 feet deep to 82 feet deep), the safe area at Augusta's hole is 4 or 5 times that of the Pine Valley hole. Sure there's no water at PV8, but the bunkers are virtually impossible to get on the green from for a typical 15 so I'd disagree with your view that PV8 would be an easier task...but that's just me.

Jim,

I think one can certainly debate which shot is tougher - #8 at Pine Valley vs #15 at Augusta. In part it is a question of green size vs water. So, people can differ.

However, I raised the issue because of a conversation with Bob Lewis years ago wherein he talked about how challenging the downhill pitch at PV was. He is no 15 HCP, of course (4 time Walker Cup player, long time Pine Valley course record holder, one time Masters player).

So, if a player of that quality noted the challenge of controlling downhill pitches, why would anyone here question the challenge for a 15 HCP.

IMO, perception of the Augusta shot are heavily influenced by television - it doesn't show the slope at he 80-100 yard mark and today most Masters players go for the green so we don't here the announcers talk about the issue the way they did years ago.

Of course, we always have the odd guy who says "I am a 12 and I hit the green. What's the big deal?"

I hit #8 at Pine Valley both times I played it when I was also about a 12, but that hardly means the shot isn't very difficult for a mid handicap.

Bob Lewis and Pat Mucci have a realistic perspective on these shots, IMO and both are far better than a 15 HCP.

Tim, thinking about our different perspectives, it ocurred to me one reason we might be looking at this differently. Do we agree this is the easiest hole on the course in relation to par? Both in the cumulative statistics since 1934, and in the 2013 average, this was the easiest hole. So, Masters players, in competition, believe that a par is loosing some to the field. They are looking at the pin when playing the third shot from across the pond because they are thinking birdie. They are not looking at the fat portion of the green, which I believe is a relatively easy shot. They are looking more often than not at a left or front pin position, which brings the water more into play.

A 10-15 handicapper is looking at par. He is perfectly happy to shoot for the safe part of the green, as caddies will quickly tell you. "That is a sucker pin position, aim for the right side of the green" was what my caddy told me. Stopping a 100-yard wedge on a 70 ft green was not tough. 

I would agree with you completely if I was being asked to go for the pin on a front right or left pin position. Anyway, this will lead to a new post about easiest and most difficult holes for pros and amateurs at ANGC.

M

[Tim_Weiman]

MClutterbuck,

I don't really know the relative scores of holes at Augusta for the pros or mid handicap players. If I were a member and took a good friend to play, my routine would probably be to first play the par 3 - a really nice feature of the club. Then, I would give him a tour of the back nine and try to show him the things television doesn't show well

The slope of the fairway at 80-100 on 15 is something I would want to show him because, don't forget, he will have to plan his second shot. I just don't think hitting it down the middle to that yardage is a good idea.

Much of this debate centers around how difficult the downhill pitch is for a mid handicap. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. But, we do agree aiming for the pin, especially at certain locations, is out of the question.

[MClutterbuck]

MClutterbuck,

I don't really know the relative scores of holes at Augusta for the pros or mid handicap players. If I were a member and took a good friend to play, my routine would probably be to first play the par 3 - a really nice feature of the club. Then, I would give him a tour of the back nine and try to show him the things television doesn't show well

The slope of the fairway at 80-100 on 15 is something I would want to show him because, don't forget, he will have to plan his second shot. I just don't think hitting it down the middle to that yardage is a good idea.

Much of this debate centers around how difficult the downhill pitch is for a mid handicap. We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. But, we do agree aiming for the pin, especially at certain locations, is out of the question.

          All time    2013       
Hole    Masters    Masters   
1          6           2           
2        16          16           
3        14          14           
4          4           1             
5          5           5           
6        13          10           
7        11           4           
8        15          17           
9        12          11             

10        1           8           
11        2           3           
12        3           7           
13       17         15           
14        8          12         
15       18         18           
16         9         13         
17       10           6         
18         7           9         

[Tim_Weiman]

MClutterbuck:

Obviously, those numbers are skewed by one Gene Sarazen shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,[

Jim,

The sleep deprivation is turning your brain to mush.

Who gives a shot to anyone from 80 yards ?
To help you answer the question, take a look at any scorecard.
The answer lies within

I think the case is made as to the strategic value of the hole for a 15 handicap.

That said, your proposal is ridiculous.

Not at all, it's the ultimate test for big mouths making absurd claims.
If it's so easy, as some have claimed, let's see them do it under pressure, with plenty riding on the outcome

Why does it need to stop on the green?

Because that's the OBJECT of the shot, OR, do want the criterion to be any ball coming to rest within 60 yards of the green ?

Why does it need to be in 1 shot?

Because medal play golf ISN'T ABOUT DO OVERS
And, that's how you create or replicate pressure.

How about you giving the 15 handicap a stroke and betting $10,000 against them from 80 - 100 yards in the fairway on that hole?
I'll take the 15!

The issue isn't about my ability nor is it about me giving a full stroke from 80 yards.
Only a colossal moron would present that argument.

The issue is about a 15 handicap hitting that green from 50-80 yards off the downhill lie under pressure.

Secondly, I contend that a 15 isn't going to get their ball to that position.

Lastly, would you bet a 15 $ 10,000 that they won't hit # 8 at PV from 50-80 ?
Would you give them a stroke for $ 10,000 ?
You're a good golfer, but there's no guarantee that you'll hit # 8 from a downhill lie from 80.

Get some sleep and reply when you're mind has cleared itself.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MC,

On paper, obviously a 15 should not expect to par the #2 handicap hole on a course...but we always want to do what we can to best position ourselves for success, right? I wouldn't advise many people to plan from the tee to be short of the pond in 3, would you? Maybe a poor drive results in Plan B, but a 200 yard drive and a 175 second shot down the hill should get me inside 100 yards right?

Agreed Jim, even if your drive is at the left side of the FW, you can punch it down to close to 100 yards.

How far do you hit your average drive ?

The key for me then is to accept you should aim to the right side of the green, even if the pin is way left.

From what position would you do this ?
Far left fairway ?
Far right fairway ?

Assuming the hole is cut far left, and your shot to the far right was blocked, such that you were in the right hand bunker, do you think the most likely score you would post would be

Par
Bogey
Double bogey
Triple bogey
Worse

If you accept that might lead to a three putt bogey, I think that is the correct strategy for the mid handicapper.

Once again, you've assumed that the 15 handicap golfer is going to hit the green.

I've got $ 20,000 that says he won't.  $ 10,000 for him and $ 10,000 for you.

What's your handicap and what's the highest level of competition you've played in, and, at what course.
I'm just trying to clarify your ability, experience and understanding of tournament pressure for a 15 handicap who's never played at a high level of competition.

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Thanks. Between Bob Lewis and Jay Sigel I think there is enough golfing skill and knowledge to understand the challenge of downhill pitch shots.

By the way, I did run into Bob out at NGLA. Man, he is enthusiastic supporter of the Walker Cup!

Tim,

I think the Lloyd Mangrum, Sam Snead story tells a lot about how hard golf shots are in Tournament conditions.

Everyone thinks that they can easily hit shots under 100 yards, but, there are some shots that are very difficult.

The approach into # 13 from 30-50-80 yards is so much harder than it looks.

Ditto # 15

Even # 2 from the 30-50-80 yard range is difficult.

Playing off of sidehill or downhill lies to sloped, narrow greens is very difficult under a medal play situation, especially when those greens are fast and firm..

Of course these shots are tougher on a Sunday in April than a Tuesday in November

I might be wrong but I found the sidehill lie on 13 much tougher than the gentler downhill lie on 15.

The shot into # 13 is very awkward and challenging.

I think the cameras deceive us as to the difficulty of the shot.

When you have to pitch from right or short right of # 13, it can be very dicey.

From years of watching the Masters on TV I always thought that # 13 was an easy hole, but I wasn't prepared for how steep the fairway slopes, how the green is configured, and how delicate and difficult a relatively short shot can can be.

But, because the camera deceives and flattens everything and because those guys are so good, those shots don't present themselves as onerous to the viewer, but, in reality, they're quite nerve wracking and difficult.

It's really a great course despite all the criticism from observers who have never played it.

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