[Mark Bourgeois]

You're going to have one hell of a time trying to finish 15 with just a driver and a putter in the bag. Be sure to hit the merchandise tent for extra balls.

[Tim_Weiman]

Sven,

There is a well known company with close connections to Augusta that has had me as a guest several times. All quite memorable.

But, perhaps the best memory was the time their sales manager showed up and began a meeting by saying arrangements had been made for me to play at Augusta that day. He went on to say he talked his management out of the game because we had some business to discuss that really required brainstorming with a white board.

I think my boss was a little shocked. I wasn't thrilled either!

[Tim_Weiman]

You're going to have one hell of a time trying to finish 15 with just a driver and a putter in the bag. Be sure to hit the merchandise tent for extra balls.

Mark,

Oh, come on. 15 can be played with a putter. No problem!

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

There is a well known company with close connections to Augusta that has had me as a guest several times. All quite memorable.

But, perhaps the best memory was the time their sales manager showed up and began a meeting by saying arrangements had been made for me to play at Augusta that day. He went on to say he talked his management out of the game because we had some business to discuss that really required brainstorming with a white board.

I think my boss was a little shocked. I wasn't thrilled either!

Wow.  There's a saying for that, and it ends with "and then her dad walked in."

[JESII]

I haven't followed every post on this thread so apologies but the Google Earth image shows a lot of room left of the pond if desired...no?

[Matthew Essig]

''Not as much. The green was larger and the surrounds had more room for error.''

  Matt,

   We are going by the C&W definition of Penal.  any forced carry is Penal and no other definitions apply.  You gotta play by their rules.

Didn't say it wasn't penal by the C&W definition. Just said the original was not as penal as it is now.

The difficulty of the original hole was the result of the big sloping contours of the green and surrounds. A wedge had to be precise to find the correct region. The creek only acted as a "thin or fat shot catcher." The downhill lie worked better before because the error of slightly missing a shot wasn't an instant splashdown/ball rolling away from the green/splatting in a bunker.

Now, the difficulty comes from the increased water area and the skinny green. The room for error is much smaller. The 15 has a much rougher time playing the hole now especially off a downhill lie in the fairway.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

What room left of the pond?  The 16th tee?  I think there are trees between the fairway and the 16th tee.

Do you mean left of the green?

[jeffwarne]

Any reason why the putter pansies can't play down to the layup area, putt out to 17 fairway and then put around the bunker to the green.
It's all short grass

[Josh Tarble]

Any reason why the putter pansies can't play down to the layup area, putt out to 17 fairway and then put around the bunker to the green.
It's all short grass

Jeff,
Seems just as likely as a 15 handicapper not being able to carry a 30 yard pond 

[jeffwarne]

Any reason why the putter pansies can't play down to the layup area, putt out to 17 fairway and then put around the bunker to the green.
It's all short grass

Jeff,
Seems just as likely as a 15 handicapper not being able to carry a 30 yard pond 

To be fair, there's also that bunker on 6 to worry about

[Mark Bourgeois]

Any reason why the putter pansies can't play down to the layup area, putt out to 17 fairway and then put around the bunker to the green.
It's all short grass

Any reason the club decided over the decades to make that route progressively harder, putter or not?

[MClutterbuck]

What 15 handicapper can't hit a ball over a pond with a wedge? I don't know any legit 15 hdcpr who can't. So what's the big deal?

Brian,

You have posed another straw man. We are talking about a specific hole and specific topography.

As I mentioned earlier, circa 1980 even players in the Masters had difficulty with that shot. That point has just become obscured due to technology encouraging nearly everyone in the tournament to go for the green in two.

As I have also mentioned previously, you can not argue this hole strategy for amateurs playing outside the Masters using examples of pros during Masters week. It is a different course.

[DMoriarty]

Any reason why the putter pansies can't play down to the layup area, putt out to 17 fairway and then put around the bunker to the green.
It's all short grass

Jeff,  when you have to go to this sort of absurdity to come up with an alternate route, then you've essentially conceded the point. By your description, it doesn't seem like there is a reasonably viable alternative to challenging the water.  

This isn't saying that forcing the 15 handicapper to challenge the water is unfair.  And it isn't saying that forcing the 15 handicapper to challenge the water makes the hole too hard.  It is saying that this isn't "strategic design" for a 15 handicapper.

[jeffwarne]

We have all heard both Bobby Jones and Mackenzie wanted to build a course that works well for both members and expert (Masters) level players.

By and large, I think they achieved that with the Augusta design. But I do wonder: how does the 15 HCP play the 15th hole?

I assume he isn't going for the green in two, but the "lay up" hardly presents a bargain. The odds of playing and successfully executing the pitch from the downhill lie don't seem very good. How likely is the 15 HCP to get to play from an easier, flat lie closer to the water?

DM

Above is the original post.

The thread title is "How does a 15 handicap play the 15th hole?

I have offered multiple strategies and tactics for playing the hole-one or two of which you think are absurd.(I would argue those strategies are no more absurd than a player contemplating how to carry a 30 yard wide pond, but I digress)

I do not care what kind of category the hole falls into according to Cornish & Whitten's definition.

We all seem to agree the hole works well for experts.
We have a few who have played it that seem to think it works well for 12's and members.
We have one who has been there that wonders if it works for a 15.(the thread author)
The 15 gets a shot on the hole-can lay up twice, putt around it to 17, play right of the bunker, play to the back right of the green (which is nowhere near water on 16) or simply man up and face that terrifying 80 yard shot (which I agree it can be)

I guess the only thought I would have would be does a shot off the same downhill lie become materially different over a creek than it does over a pond? How wide is the creek allowed to get before it terrifies the 15, renders the hole unplayable for him and destroys the architects original intent?

[DMoriarty]

Jeff, Threads oftentimes digress away from the original question, and at some point this one turned into a discussion of whether or not the pond fronting the 15th green was strategic design or penal design for the 15th handicap.

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by thinking it absurd for someone to putt over to 17 then around the bunker.  It seemed to be that you knew it was absurd when you were suggesting it.  Pretty much every 15 handicap will just try to hit it over the water and hope for the best.  That is the point I thought we were both trying to make.   

As for whether the shot is a hard one, I really couldn't say as I've never been there.  Patrick has played the course and he seems to think it pretty difficult for a short shot.  I thought Tim had played the course as well and he has certainly been there, and he seems to think it a hard shot.  I will say, generally, that any shot to a green with a pond in front and a pond behind (or at least partially behind) is pretty hard for a higher handicapper, especially off of a downhill lie.   This isn't to say that such shots are unfair or too hard or "unplayable," but they just aren't easy for higher handicaps. 

I guess the only thought I would have would be does a shot off the same downhill lie become materially different over a creek than it does over a pond? How wide is the creek allowed to get before it terrifies the 15, renders the hole unplayable for him and destroys the architects original intent?

I think you are exaggerating by saying unplayable. Like I said, I haven't been there, but I would guess that it isn't so much the width of the creek/pond, but the combination of some of the other features that might have taken away from the original intent.  For example . . .
  -- Sven mentioned that there used to be more room between the green and the water and that the bank wasn't so steep.  If this is accurate this gives the higher handicap a bit more leeway.
  -- Also, at some point the bunker right was added. Without the bunker, the higher handicap golfer had a much more appealing bail out long and right.
  -- Also, and perhaps most importantly, the water behind (and the slope down to the water) changes the nature of the shot.  For a higher handicap golfer, it is one thing to have to carry a creek ( or even a pond) but it is quite another to have to carry a creek or pond, then stop the shot before it goes into another pond. 

Now as I keep saying, I don't know any of this first hand.  But still I don't think the expansion of the creek to the pond is the whole story here, is it?   

[jeffwarne]

DM,

OT but
You owe it to yourself to go see the course.
(not that it would really help in our current discussion as I think you have a reasonable understanding of the hole and I think we agree despite the semantic discussions)

There are things there that will surprise anyone the first time they see it-especially a long time reader of our annual threads here.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see ANGC in its original form-or even return more to the course I grew up watching(less silly trees and rough, and firmer bermuda greens)-but I do tend to go all devil's advocate when I read the annual negative misinformed stuff posted about the place.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jeff:

Not looking to stir the pot, but I'm curious what you would say from this thread is negative and/or misinformed.

Sven

[Tim_Weiman]

Sven,

By and large I don't think this thread has been negative. Some of the responses were predictable, but they were certainly diverse and that probably makes for a good thread.

Two closing thoughts:

1) we have all heard the limitations of television presenting Augusta and how different it seems to first time visitors. My own feeling is that the degree to which the camera captures the essence of holes actually varies. On #12, the camera behind quite adequately captures how small the green is and the degree to which distance control is paramount.

My personal belief after five trips to Augusta is that the camera really doesn't capture the shotmaking challenge on #15 for the mid handicap player. It just doesn't capture the contour.

In fact, what first motivated me to assess this situation was how television announcers circa 1980 would talk about how challenging the shot could be, but it never looked that way. It takes a first hand on site visit. Then, the challenge becomes clear. The slope is not "sleight" as someone here suggested.

2) it is interesting that on a golf architecture board people could question whether a downhill 80 yard pitch shot could be challenging for a 15 HCP. For those familiar with #8 at Pine Valley, nobody has ever said such a thing. In fact, Bob Lewis himself - still the competitive course record holder, I think - once told me how important it was to find a flat spot down to the right than attempting a pitch in the center from that distance. Lewis even played in the Masters, along with 3-4 Walker Cups, so his perspective certainly lends credibility to the point Pat Mucci made about the shot pitch at Augusta being tough even for much better players than a 15.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff:

Not looking to stir the pot, but I'm curious what you would say from this thread is negative and/or misinformed.

Sven

Nothing on this thread is negative or misinformed-been a great discussion
It's the annual "lack of width", "lack of angles", "overwatered/Augusta syndrome" threads that get me going  

Tim, funny you should mention 8 at PV.
that is a tough shot indeed-as is the shot to 15 at ANGC.
My point is that even though it's tough, it's quite doable, and there are ways to mitigate much of the risk

[jeffwarne]

Any reason why the putter pansies can't play down to the layup area, putt out to 17 fairway and then put around the bunker to the green.
It's all short grass

Any reason the club decided over the decades to make that route progressively harder, putter or not?

Mark,
Actually when there was a creek and not a pond, it continued across the property, so putting around it via 17 would not have been an option.
So actually they've made it easier for the putter brigade

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff:

Not looking to stir the pot, but I'm curious what you would say from this thread is negative and/or misinformed.

Sven

Nothing on this thread is negative or misinformed-been a great discussion
It's the annual "lack of width", "lack of angles", "overwatered/Augusta syndrome" threads that get me going  

Tim, funny you should mention 8 at PV.
that is a tough shot indeed-as is the shot to 15 at ANGC.
My point is that even though it's tough, it's quite doable, and there are ways to mitigate much of the risk

Jeff,

I played Pine Valley twice and both times hit the green on #8 playing at about a 12 HCP. Think I was around 100-110 yards center left both times, but unfortunately both occasions it was to the right side green which is a little bit easier, I think. My rounds were 88 and 91 with lots of three putts.

Enjoyed watching play on 8 during the 1985 Walker Cup. Not everyone reached the point Bob Lewis advised me to find. Many seemed to hit from about the 100 yard range and my impression was many were kind of nervous about the shot. Short but dangerous. I'd say about two thirds hit the green, but that is stretching my memory.

[Peter Pallotta]

Gents, I think the world of you, but have we really come to this? Really - three pages on playing the 15th "strategically", with a putter? Okay, before you step away from the keyboard, please do me this favour. Imagine this:

Loving Wife: "Honey, what's the matter?"
You: "Oh, nothing".
Loving Wife: "Really? Because you've not seemed yourself all day.
You: "No, it's nothing".
Loving Wife: "Please tell me. It almost feels like you're depressed or something"
(pause)
Loving Wife: "Come on - what is it, what's on your mind?"
You: "Well..."
Loving Wife: "Go ahead. You know you can tell me anything - whatever it is".
(pause)
You: "Well, okay, thanks. Well, did you know, I mean, can you even believe it? Let me start again. You know how the Masters is coming up, right, in just a couple of weeks?
(pause)
Loving Wife: "This is about golf?"
You: "Yes, and you know what I found out today? I can't believe -- ooh, it makes me so angry! Do you know that you can't play the 15th hole at Augusta with a putter!! THEY DON'T ALLOW FOR IT". It was once the height of strategic golf, that course, and now look at it - a shadow of it's former self! They killed it, don't you see? They killed it. Oh, I'm telling you, it has bummed me out all day".
(pause)
You: "Honey - honey, did you hear me?"
Loving Wife: "Yes - yes, I did"
You: 'Then what is it - you seem, like, sick to your stomach..."
Loving Wife: "Get out"
You: "What...?"
Loving Wife: "Get out, right now please. Before I call the police".
You: "But you said..."
Loving Wife: "You have lost your mind. You are out of your mind! Ah - my mother was right about you all along".

[BCowan]

''Didn't say it wasn't penal by the C&W definition. Just said the original was not as penal as it is now.

The difficulty of the original hole was the result of the big sloping contours of the green and surrounds. A wedge had to be precise to find the correct region. The creek only acted as a "thin or fat shot catcher." The downhill lie worked better before because the error of slightly missing a shot wasn't an instant splashdown/ball rolling away from the green/splatting in a bunker.

Now, the difficulty comes from the increased water area and the skinny green. The room for error is much smaller. The 15 has a much rougher time playing the hole now especially off a downhill lie in the fairway.''

Matt,

   I would imagine now with technology more 15 handi's can reach the green in two than in 49'.  There is a good amount of 15's that lack short game skills.  The ball didn't fly near as well as it does now in pre 1949.  The smallness of the green is in response to technology is my hunch.  Also the grass around the green doesn't have to be as tight as they cut it now, and I would bet in 1949 the grass was a touch longer.  The creek pre-49 was continuous.  Now with the tiny pond a player can putt around it, as Jeff mentioned, which adds strategy.  It comes down to the maint of Augusta for everyday play, and the average golfer not wanting to hit anything other than a flat lie shot.  Flat lies, no blind shots, and the green speed arms race=modern day boring golf...  The 15 handi cap now has awesome short game facilities to practice their game, top notch equipment and teachers like (jeff) unlike 49'.  They had to make it slightly harder.  Plus, we don't know if there was a reason they made it into a tiny pond...  Maybe more 15 handi's will putt around the pond and take their 6 and go quietly...

[David Lott]

In my case, never.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I forgot to add something.

Every shot is easy when it doesn't count.

As Bobby Jones said, "There's golf and there's tournament golf"

Playing a casual round is a lark.

But, playing in a medal play qualifier or tournament brings a unique pressure with it.

Hitting that little 50-80 yard wedge, off a downhill lie, to that green in a medal play situation, makes that shot significantly more difficult.

To the point that it would be a knee knocker for a 15 or 11 handicapper.

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