[Tim_Weiman]

Tim

Yes, I realize about #15, but I was thinking there more in general terms.

Have you ever seen a course you could call all strategic or penal?  I don't think either beast exists.  The entire Strategic to Penal continuum is about balance between the two extremes with most courses leaning toward strategic (despite the rhetoric of authors).  I think if we saw a course with 50% penal drives people would generally say that is a penal course.  I think I went through Oakland Hills once and it was about 50% tee shots and we know what sort of rep OH has.  TOC, often held up as one of the most strategic courses on the planet, has some cross hazards and forced carries. 

Ciao

Sean,

Your point is well taken. That is why I mentioned the famous #13th hole at Pine Valley which I and I think most people consider "strategic".

[jeffwarne]

...but I still think what we have here is a judgement call: does the 15th really provide an option for the mid handicap player?

I guess your question leads to the next question; does every hole have to provide an option for the mid handicap player? 

I can't fathom why hitting over water from a downhill lie is such an issue.  Sure, its penal, but isn't a mix of penal with strategic shots a great way to separate the men from the boys?  A great course (I assume we all agree Augusta is great) should have some shots which puckers the butt.  In any case, there must be tons of 15 cappers who pull this shot off every year.  I realize you want to focus on 15 only, but I don't think thats very helpful if we are trying to decide if a shot requirement is reasonable.  I use the same justification for Pennard's 17 & 18.  Both holes require very specific shots to be successful. While demanding and penal, when compared with the remainder of the drives which are really quite generous, its not too much to ask for a few holes to require more precision.     

Ciao

First, obviously we have disagreement regarding the difficulty of the third shot for our 15 HCP - the 80-100 downhill wedge shot over water with water behind the green.

 but I am clearly in the camp that believes it is much more difficult than some here are willing to concede.

It's difficult-I concede that-as are most shots for a 15-that's why he gets a shot a hole.

I've been attending, and watching The Masters for 40 years. Granted I've only sat in the grandstand on 15 a couple of times for maybe 5 hours total.
I've NEVER seen a ball in the water over. I've heard the announcers talk about it a cajillion times, but I've never seen a ball in the water on 16.

I'm curious, would you have the water on 15 or 16 or both removed, or would you regrade the hill down to the water-18 at Torrey Pines comes to mind

I happen to think it's great to have a hole where when the good player is contemplating whether he should go for a green on his second shot, that he has to factor in what are the ramifications of his THIRD shot if he lays up(or worse yet for his drop if he does hit the water), rather than the stock 100 yard shot we see so often on a par 5 for the laying up player.

If the 15 gets a difficult third shot as a result so be it, and the rewards are that much juicier for him if he pulls it off.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff,

I can't back it up with actual data, but suspect the water behind is more of an issue for our 15 than the Masters type player. Isn't hitting the ball thin a real risk for the mid handicapper?

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I can't back it up with actual data, but suspect the water behind is more of an issue for our 15 than the Masters type player. Isn't hitting the ball thin a real risk for the mid handicapper?

absolutely, and therefore he should aim to the right side of the green if he feels a skinny coming on-plenty of room long right
the water isn't really that near, (many courses have houses closer than that pond on 16, and it gets further away the more one aims right)

[Mark Smolens]

How does a 15 hcp play the 15th at Augusta?

With a huge smile on his face. . . one that's been there for almost three hours and which will be there for another 40 minutes or so.

[Tim_Weiman]

How does a 15 hcp play the 15th at Augusta?

With a huge smile on his face. . . one that's been there for almost three hours and which will be there for another 40 minutes or so.

Mark,

For quite a few years I was the guest of a well known company that did lots of entertaining at Augusta - mostly during the Masters but also in small groups at other times.

The impression I have is most guests very much enjoyed the experience (of course) and playing the famous Amen Corner holes in particular. But, I think someone mentioned to me the feeling wasn't so great about playing #15. The pros make it seem easy, but the reality for first time mid handicap players is very different.

Personally, when I play a famous hole for the first time, I hate to not play it well.

[Jason Thurman]

It's obvious from reading this thread that the average player has plenty of options on the hole. He can choose from them all, depending on which ones fit his game, and he has plenty of room to bail out if he needs to. If, in spite of all that, he lays the sod over the ball on a 70 yard pitch shot, then I can't hold the course responsible for that. I also can't hold the course responsible if he fails to execute any other option he's chosen.

There's risk on every shot on every course for a hacker. Some of you sound like you won't be satisfied until every topped shot for every terrible golfer results in a GIR with a chance to two-putt. 15 has plenty of accommodations for the average player, and Augusta has really improved their practice facility if he still can't execute well enough to use them. For a player who's actually as horrible as some of you guys are making the average 15 handicap sound, he can always putt across the Sarazen Bridge.

I challenge anyone to find a 15 handicapper at your local public course who isn't a recreational beard-puller who wouldn't be thrilled to have the opportunity to try his hand at the hole, even on a replica that isn't on the hallowed premises. Golfers like challenge, and there's no need to gift-wrap the #2 handicap hole at a course for the golfer getting the stroke.

[Tim_Weiman]

It's obvious from reading this thread that the average player has plenty of options on the hole. He can choose from them all, depending on which ones fit his game, and he has plenty of room to bail out if he needs to. If, in spite of all that, he lays the sod over the ball on a 70 yard pitch shot, then I can't hold the course responsible for that. I also can't hold the course responsible if he fails to execute any other option he's chosen.

There's risk on every shot on every course for a hacker. Some of you sound like you won't be satisfied until every topped shot for every terrible golfer results in a GIR with a chance to two-putt. 15 has plenty of accommodations for the average player, and Augusta has really improved their practice facility if he still can't execute well enough to use them. For a player who's actually as horrible as some of you guys are making the average 15 handicap sound, he can always putt across the Sarazen Bridge.

I challenge anyone to find a 15 handicapper at your local public course who isn't a recreational beard-puller who wouldn't be thrilled to have the opportunity to try his hand at the hole, even on a replica that isn't on the hallowed premises. Golfers like challenge, and there's no need to gift-wrap the #2 handicap hole at a course for the golfer getting the stroke.

Jason,

I don't know where in this thread anyone suggested a 15 HCP muni player wouldn't enjoy an invitation to play at Augusta. Why even mention such a thing?

The whole point is to have a discussion about golf architecture.  Augusta is an ideal venue to discuss because while most people haven't spent much, if any, time there, television does provide some (perhaps misleading) familiarity.

It is a good thing people mentioned various ways for the 15 HCP to play the hole. Some people even seemed to believe their alternative to a layup in the middle of the fairway 80-100 yards out might be the better way for a 15 HCP to play the hole.

The revised 15th hole at Augusta May or may not betray the original design concept. The thread provides both points of view. But, I am not sure your comment that we can't "hold the course responsible" makes sense. Designing a great golf course takes a lot of time and thought. Pretty tough to get it 100% right all the time, especially for all classes of players.

[MClutterbuck]

Fact is dozens of 10-20 handicappers play 15 every day without too much trouble. I insist Augusta National is much easier from tee to green than a ton of other courses that are perceived to be easier. You can not judge ANGC based on what we see on TV and then extrapolate that to 15 handicap players. Amateurs play greens that hold approaches really well. The issue for amateurs is the putting. For the pros it is to land the approach on the few places that will hold the ball, because the greens are so firm tournament week. 15 is not a problem. Hitting greens in regulation is not that tough 26 weeks a year.

Before I played ANGC I thought I would not break 90 and I would three putt 6 greens. In fact, I was really close to 80 and three putted more than I expected. 12 handicap members do brake 80 on a good putting day. The course is perfect for amateurs and the experience is excellent. A fair test of golf.

[Jason Thurman]

Pretty tough to get it 100% right all the time, especially for all classes of players.

This is the sentiment I object to. There seems to be a general implication in this thread that asking a 15 handicapper to hit a shot from 80 yards that he might fail to execute equates to "not getting it right for all classes of players." If we're never allowed to ask an average player to execute a shot that requires him to look like he's touched a golf club before, then that's even more ridiculous than me suggesting he could putt across the Sarazen Bridge - which is an option he could employ along with a number of other strategies, if he honestly can't hit an 80 yard shot off a downhill lie.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pretty tough to get it 100% right all the time, especially for all classes of players.

This is the sentiment I object to. There seems to be a general implication in this thread that asking a 15 handicapper to hit a shot from 80 yards that he might fail to execute equates to "not getting it right for all classes of players." If we're never allowed to ask an average player to execute a shot that requires him to look like he's touched a golf club before, then that's even more ridiculous than me suggesting he could putt across the Sarazen Bridge - which is an option he could employ along with a number of other strategies, if he honestly can't hit an 80 yard shot off a downhill lie.

Jason,

Imagine our 15 HCP trying to hit a wedge to set up a birdie putt on #16 at Crystal Downs, another Mackenzie design, albeit one that has been preserved.

Honestly, that is probably asking more than asking him to play the current version of #15 at Augusta. It is extremely hard.

Still, the CD hole more faithfully retains the playable for all levels concept, IMO. You just don't seem to like or appreciate the concept. Ok. We get that. But, it does come from one of the best minds in the history of the game and as a student of golf architecture, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

[Jason Thurman]

No, I agree with the concept. I simply think you're misapplying it.

Playable and easy are not the same thing. There's nothing arduous about an 80 yard wedge shot off a downhill lie, and if a certain player finds it arduous, he can employ any number of alternate strategies as discussed throughout this thread.

[Mark Fedeli]

Isn't the slope simply a trade-off for average players?

It's a way to make crossing the hazard with the third shot as demanding as crossing it with the second. It's saying, "go for it two when you have the chance, because going for it in three is no picnic." You'll have a short distance and your highest lofted club and a clean lie, but in exchange, the slope will require you to execute a very specific, but not impossible, type of shot.

To me, that is strategic. Far more so than a hole like the 15th at Bethpage, where the average player has almost zero chance of getting up to the green in regulation.

[Tim_Weiman]

Isn't the slope simply a trade-off for average players?

It's a way to make crossing the hazard with the third shot as demanding as crossing it with the second. It's saying, "go for it two when you have the chance, because going for it in three is no picnic." You'll have a short distance and your highest lofted club and a clean lie, but in exchange, the slope will require you to execute a very specific, but not impossible, type of shot.

To me, that is strategic. Far more so than a hole like the 15th at Bethpage, where the average player has almost zero chance of getting up to the green in regulation.

Mark,

I agree the typical 15 HCP won't be able to reach the Bethpage hole, but does failing to reach it have the same consequence as 15 at Augusta?

[Tim_Weiman]

No, I agree with the concept. I simply think you're misapplying it.

Playable and easy are not the same thing. There's nothing arduous about an 80 yard wedge shot off a downhill lie, and if a certain player finds it arduous, he can employ any number of alternate strategies as discussed throughout this thread.

Jason,

I agree with Pat Mucci's comments earlier in this thread. The shot is very tough for players much better than our 15 HCP.

Remember, back in the days when Masters players weren't automatically going for the green in two, the third shot was hardly considered easy even for those guys.

[Mark Fedeli]

Isn't the slope simply a trade-off for average players?

It's a way to make crossing the hazard with the third shot as demanding as crossing it with the second. It's saying, "go for it two when you have the chance, because going for it in three is no picnic." You'll have a short distance and your highest lofted club and a clean lie, but in exchange, the slope will require you to execute a very specific, but not impossible, type of shot.

To me, that is strategic. Far more so than a hole like the 15th at Bethpage, where the average player has almost zero chance of getting up to the green in regulation.

Mark,

I agree the typical 15 HCP won't be able to reach the Bethpage hole, but does failing to reach it have the same consequence as 15 at Augusta?

I think the consequences for failing to reach it are similar. If you go for the green at BPB and come up short, you'll be in a bunker that is deep enough to where you likely can't see the pin and that you may simply not be able to get out of. My bunker game is weaksauce so personally, i'd rather hit from the DZ at Augusta then be in that front bunker at BPB.

Now, if you tell me that the DZ is also on an extremely severe slope, that's a different story.

[Jason Thurman]

Tim, no one is suggesting the shot is easy. But for your implication that the hole does not "get it right for the average class of player" to hold water, you have to prove that there's something wrong with what it's asking that player to do.

I suspect we just disagree about what a hole can fairly ask from a player. It sounds like you generally disapprove of holes that require players to hit a relatively competent shot at some point. I can't relate to that, but that's ok. Some golfers relish challenges, and some golfers wish to be accommodated and saved from their own mistakes. It's no different than anything else in life - some guys like to chase attractive women, and other guys marry the fat girl they started dating during sophomore year of high school. If you don't like the feeling of adrenaline, maybe 15 at Augusta just isn't for you.

The notion that the shot is hard even for very good players only undermines your argument further. It sounds to me like you're talking about a classic case of a hole on which a greedy strong player can get burned with a splash by being overly aggressive while a weaker player can bail out long and right and have a fairly routine bogey opportunity that may just win the hole.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim, no one is suggesting the shot is easy. But for your implication that the hole does not "get it right for the average class of player" to hold water, you have to prove that there's something wrong with what it's asking that player to do.

I suspect we just disagree about what a hole can fairly ask from a player. It sounds like you generally disapprove of holes that require players to hit a relatively competent shot at some point. I can't relate to that, but that's ok. Some golfers relish challenges, and some golfers wish to be accommodated and saved from their own mistakes. It's no different than anything else in life - some guys like to chase attractive women, and other guys marry the fat girl they started dating during sophomore year of high school. If you don't like the feeling of adrenaline, maybe 15 at Augusta just isn't for you.

The notion that the shot is hard even for very good players only undermines your argument further. It sounds to me like you're talking about a classic case of a hole on which a greedy strong player can get burned with a splash by being overly aggressive while a weaker player can bail out long and right and have a fairly routine bogey opportunity that may just win the hole.

Jason,

Actually it seems like some people are suggesting the shot is easy.

As for how much a hole can fairly ask of a player, that is the question. But, remember the design intent of Augusta was to be strategic not penal and the shot required for our 15 HCP goes well beyond "relatively competent", IMO.

As I mentioned before, I think a third shot like #16 at Crystal Downs much better exemplifies the design for all levels of players concept. Extremely hard - way beyond "relatively competent" - but also not too penal. It is a tough balancing act.

[Morgan Clawson]

Here are the thoughts from a 15 'cap more or less.

First, I don't think this hole is penal. I don't think this course is penal at all. Penal to me means penalty strokes. There's not long carries over hazards, there's not long grass to lose your ball in, and there's not a lot of OB that's too close to the fairway.

In reality this is how the 15th hole would probably play-out for me.

My drive would likely go left or right.   So, my second shot would be partially blocked by trees.  So my second shot would probably be a low runner that I could advance only 150 yards or so. So, I'm 160 out, and I go for it with a choked-up hybrid.  If I'm a little long and right, that's ok.  I aim for the right section of the green. I'm nervous and I hit it too far right, so I end up in the bunker or just beyond it. I pitch it on the green and hope it holds. I 2 putt for a happy 6.

I think 13 would be a much harder hole scoring wise for the 15 'cap.  Rae is in play on every shot until you're safely on the green. There's a good chance she'll drown you sooner or later.

[Tim_Weiman]

Morgan,
 
I certainly don't think Augusta is penal.

Your playing strategy is another I've considered. 150-160 yards seems far easier than 80-100.

[DMoriarty]

I am sorry if this has been mentioned, but the bunker right wasn't there originally was it?   Perhaps the higher handicap player used to have a more realistic bail out option over there in the past.  

[MClutterbuck]

Morgan,
 
I certainly don't think Augusta is penal.

Agreed it is not. I bet most people on this thread would miss low in guessing the number of greens in regulation a 12 handicap would have at ANGC.

[Charlie_Bell]

Would someone familiar with the hole please answer the following questions:

1) Is there a place in the fairway which is less than 420 yards from the tee and which offers a somewhat level lie?
2) If so, how difficult is it to reach this place in two strokes?
3) From this place, how long and how difficult will the approach shot be:
      i) if the player attempts to score a 5?
     ii) if the player plays for a very safe 6?

Thank you.

[MClutterbuck]

Would someone familiar with the hole please answer the following questions:

1) Is there a place in the fairway which is less than 420 yards from the tee and which offers a somewhat level lie?
2) If so, how difficult is it to reach this place in two strokes?
3) From this place, how long and how difficult will the approach shot be:
      i) if the player attempts to score a 5?
     ii) if the player plays for a very safe 6?

Thank you.

1 and 2. From memory, I believe that between 200 and 220 from the middle of the green it is fairly flat. A good drive gets you there if you are a medium to long hitter for a middle handicap player.

Close to the pond it is fairly flat. It is not tough to get there with a mid iron to a wedge depending on the drive.

3. It depends on the putting and flag position. Always aim for the right side of the green with the wedge shot, and depending on flag position and your putting, you have your 5 or 6.

I think this thread is based onMasters week TV. 15 is not tough to play unless you get silly. More intriguing to me would be...

A. How do you hold the green on a front pin position at #1?
B. How do you play 5.
C. How do you play your second or third shot on 13 if you are a 15 handicap and can not adjust for your ball to be way above your feet in the middle of the fairway? I my mind 13 was the furthest rift between amateur and pro strategy at ANGC.

M

[Wayne_Kozun]

I don't know how I would play it but if my shot hit the flagstick and bounced back into the water I know where to take the drop!

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