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Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2014, 08:33:19 AM »
Josh - your geography is off. King Island is in the Bass Strait, half way between Melbourne and Tasmania, nowhere near Adelaide.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2014, 11:31:20 AM »
I wonder if future access to the island and the golf course could be done by a high speed ferry? It appears to be somewhere aboug 80-90 miles from  Geelong.

The only current ferry is confined to cargo supplies, as I understand it.  The ferry used by the MONA museum in Hobart might be an example.  But, I don't know if that is possible on the more open sea strait being too rough.   A ferry like that may cost more than the course construction, however.
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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2014, 12:46:20 PM »
Has to be a very reasonable flight from the mainland.  Once your there you won't want to leave.  Any more land for a potential second course?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2014, 12:53:33 PM »
I don't know whether there could be another course at Cape Wickham, but Aussie architect Graeme Grant is in the middle of building another oceanfront 18 holer elsewhere on the island.

http://www.oceandunes.com.au

And the island's long-established nine hole club was pitched to me by Greg Ramsay as one of the best in the world.

http://golfkingisland.com

So no shortage of possibilities there.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2014, 03:27:42 PM »
Those fairways look to have been graded pretty flat.  Still, I guess that's what happens when you use a Yank designer.   

You would have thought if they wanted a Yank, they would have got Greg Norman.  Darius would have blown his wad so high it would look like a mushroom cloud over the ocean.  Probably not so good for Japanese tourism though.



Mark,

I don't think I would call Mike DeVries a "Yank designer". That doesn't seem like a good fit for a person that kind of grew up at Cystal Downs.

Take a look a Kingsley. I doubt the person who built that course would purposefully remove fairway contour on this project.
Tim Weiman

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2014, 03:34:35 PM »
Echoing Ash's questions, Mike, can you share how the routing came together? Curious to hear your thoughts on using the coast vs the interior, on not returning to the clubhouse after 9, and on where the holes along the coast fall in the routing. Thank you for posting.

The key was to find the best routing and how to create the best flow for the golf course.  The shoreline is so spectacular that it is impossible to not have dramatic holes on the ocean as well as away from it.  The interior land of holes 7-9 contains some of the finest dunes on the site and there were various ways to utilize that terrain - in fact, there is a 330 yard hole that was just sitting there, the best short par four on the property and one of the best I have ever seen, but it didn't work with the overall best routing, so it doesn't fit and doesn't make the final cut.

The clubhouse location was pretty obvious for its site overlooking Victoria Cove and Cape Wickham Lighthouse, plus it is backed by a major dune and is thus protected from the Roaring Forties.  Forcing the routing to return to that point would have vastly deteriorated the routing flow and thus we have the 13-5 split.  What is good about that is that we have some mini-loops for those who don't want to play a full 36 holes - 1-5+13=6 hole loop, 14-18=5 hole loop, you could also play down the warm-up fairway or walk to the 8th tee and play 8-13 for a nice 6 hole loop there.  The start along the headland gives us a strong beginning visually with lots of change in direction, turning towards the iconic lighthouse as the aiming target on the 4th tee.  the routing turns inward on 6-9, returning down to the ocean on the 10th, the 11th practically in the ocean, and the marvelously short 12th with its large green hanging above a natural sandstone cave on the coast.  Then the 13th returns inland to the clubhouse, pause for refreshment and overlook at the 18th below on the way to the 14th tee.  The 14th and 15th are inland although you look at the expanse of ocean from both of them and the 15th finishes tight to the rocks on the shore.  The 16th tee is on the rocks and the green is suspended out on a small peninsula of land.  I recognized the specialness of the 17th tee right away and it gives a great vantage point to look at the beginning holes on the headland, the 16th you just completed, and the finishing two holes ahead - a par 3 followed by the beach in play on the home hole.

Hope that helps!

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2014, 03:41:14 PM »
I wonder if future access to the island and the golf course could be done by a high speed ferry? It appears to be somewhere aboug 80-90 miles from  Geelong.

The only current ferry is confined to cargo supplies, as I understand it.  The ferry used by the MONA museum in Hobart might be an example.  But, I don't know if that is possible on the more open sea strait being too rough.   A ferry like that may cost more than the course construction, however.

With regards to access, there are various planes that service the island from MEL-Tullamarine, Moorabbin on the Mornington peninsula, and flights to mainland Tassie (Burnie and Launceston).  Private service provider Vortex Air that goes to BB/LF already services KI for other purposes and I am sure they will fit in the Cape Wickham clientele easily since it is halfway between Melbourne and BB/LF.  Even better is a helicopter service that can zip a foursome right next to the golf course in 45 minutes from Melbourne.

Ferry service for human passage is currently not an option and unlikely due to a lack of volume and rough seas.

Best,
Mike

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2014, 03:44:14 PM »
Those fairways look to have been graded pretty flat.  Still, I guess that's what happens when you use a Yank designer.  

You would have thought if they wanted a Yank, they would have got Greg Norman.  Darius would have blown his wad so high it would look like a mushroom cloud over the ocean.  Probably not so good for Japanese tourism though.



Mark,

I don't think I would call Mike DeVries a "Yank designer". That doesn't seem like a good fit for a person that kind of grew up at Cystal Downs.

Take a look a Kingsley. I doubt the person who built that course would purposefully remove fairway contour on this project.

As a matter of fact,  if anything the opposite is true.  The knock on Kingsley, particularly from the uninitiated scorecard and pencil crowd, is that the course is too severe in spots and that it should have been softened further.  
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 06:44:30 PM by JTigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2014, 03:47:29 PM »
good luck, but I suspect it will struggle.  Barnbougle is at least a short hop from Melbourne, but being a short hop from Adelaide is a bit like being a short hop from Rapid City South Dakota. 

It may not be the middle of nowhere, but you can see it from there.



Not sure I get your geography.  King Island is closer to Melbourne than Barnbougle is.  It's a 40 minute flight from MEL to the island and then a short drive. 

I think the problem with travel right now is there is no way to get from Barnbougle to King Island without first going back to Melbourne.  I would hope that one of the airlines will look at a flight a day that stops at King Island on the way from MEL to Launceston and on the way back.  You could then put a Barnbougle/King Island trip together fairly easily.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2014, 05:11:40 PM »
good luck, but I suspect it will struggle.  Barnbougle is at least a short hop from Melbourne, but being a short hop from Adelaide is a bit like being a short hop from Rapid City South Dakota. 

It may not be the middle of nowhere, but you can see it from there.



Not sure I get your geography.  King Island is closer to Melbourne than Barnbougle is.  It's a 40 minute flight from MEL to the island and then a short drive. 

I think the problem with travel right now is there is no way to get from Barnbougle to King Island without first going back to Melbourne.  I would hope that one of the airlines will look at a flight a day that stops at King Island on the way from MEL to Launceston and on the way back.  You could then put a Barnbougle/King Island trip together fairly easily.

Sharp airlines fly to king island from burnie and launceston.

King Island is easiky accessible logistically but the cost is much higher than getting to barnbougle.   You can get return flights from melb to launcezton for under $150.  King island would be more like $400 although if traffic increases fhen it might open up discounting.
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Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2014, 06:30:24 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for the detailed reply about the routing.

Good luck with the project.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2014, 06:55:50 PM »
Spectacular, thanks for posting. Fits my view that great surfing = great golf.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2014, 09:45:54 PM »
Mike DeVries:

I like hearing about the mini loops. Great quality for a golf course.

Cape Wickham is a journey I want to make.
Tim Weiman

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2014, 10:48:46 PM »
Not sure I get your geography.  King Island is closer to Melbourne than Barnbougle is.  It's a 40 minute flight from MEL to the island and then a short drive. 

I think the problem with travel right now is there is no way to get from Barnbougle to King Island without first going back to Melbourne.  I would hope that one of the airlines will look at a flight a day that stops at King Island on the way from MEL to Launceston and on the way back.  You could then put a Barnbougle/King Island trip together fairly easily.

The biggest problem I can see is that none of the major airlines fly to King Island from Melbourne or Sydney, so the cost of getting there reflects that. David Elvins is right that you're looking at minimum of around $400 return from Melbourne with the likes of Rex or King Island Airlines, whereas you can do a lot better going to Launceston.

I don't understand where the volume of play will come from, but hope that I'm missing something and the economics of the project work.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2014, 11:50:14 PM »
Not sure I get your geography.  King Island is closer to Melbourne than Barnbougle is.  It's a 40 minute flight from MEL to the island and then a short drive. 

I think the problem with travel right now is there is no way to get from Barnbougle to King Island without first going back to Melbourne.  I would hope that one of the airlines will look at a flight a day that stops at King Island on the way from MEL to Launceston and on the way back.  You could then put a Barnbougle/King Island trip together fairly easily.

The biggest problem I can see is that none of the major airlines fly to King Island from Melbourne or Sydney, so the cost of getting there reflects that. David Elvins is right that you're looking at minimum of around $400 return from Melbourne with the likes of Rex or King Island Airlines, whereas you can do a lot better going to Launceston.

I don't understand where the volume of play will come from, but hope that I'm missing something and the economics of the project work.

Chris,

I'd love to know where the Del Monte Company thought the volume would come from when they set out to develop the Monterey Peninsula. If Marion Hollins thought it would be all her US East Coast buddies I'd be impressed, but probably a San Francisco crowd had something to do with the planning assumptions.

Anyway, I hope the project works and more economical travel from Melbourne evolves.
Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2014, 12:18:20 AM »
Mike, during your months on the island, do you think you saw about the worst weather seasonal storms that might be expected over the yearly passages of seasons?  Do you have any weather-climate related concerns like erosion playing havoc with your intended design and maintenance meld?

Did you have Dan "the fescue man" over for a look?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 12:31:45 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2014, 04:37:35 AM »
Mike, during your months on the island, do you think you saw about the worst weather seasonal storms that might be expected over the yearly passages of seasons?  Do you have any weather-climate related concerns like erosion playing havoc with your intended design and maintenance meld?

Did you have Dan "the fescue man" over for a look?

Have to say I did wonder whether salt spray might wreak havoc on that 11th hole; I'm sure that has been considered. The course does seem to interact with the ocean absolutely spectacularly...

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2014, 06:14:00 AM »
Mike,

Thank you for sharing these insights with us. Nice to read direct feedback.

Looks terrific, as indeed does the whole island golf wise - more 1-iron territory than high flighted hybrids?

Given the location etc, I guess the logistical aspects of the project must be quite um, 'interesting' at times.

Adam,

The 9-holer you highlight above does look pretty tastie. The other new venture you highlight also seems pretty interesting.

All in all, KI looks a top place to go. NW Ireland/N Scotland but warmer!

atb

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2014, 06:58:45 PM »
An update from King Island. Looks great...

http://www.planetgolf.com/index.php?id=1869

Glorious weather on King Island right through summer and autumn has allowed progress on the exciting new coastal course at Cape Wickham to continue on schedule. Currently there are 14 holes completed and grassed, with the remaining four holes in various stages of development. The spectacular drivable par four 12th has been roughed-in and will be grassed before the end of May, as will the long par five 13th. The final holes, 15 and 16, require some additional earthworks but should be ready for grassing by the end of June. The course remains on track for a 2015 opening.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2014, 08:15:07 PM »
Check out Ocean Dunes, the other new course being developed on King Island.

Hopefully these 2 courses will work together to help golf tourists.

Jackson C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cape Wickham
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2014, 04:47:40 PM »
Does this course have the potential to be World top 100 or higher?

For such a spectacular course, in an era of few new courses, not a lot of hype so far.

"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)