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Steve Okula

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Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2014, 12:19:54 PM »
Jon,

I wouldn't call you a liar but you are contradicting yourself. If you don't use the roller to gain speed, then why not just raise the HOC 1.5mm, leave the roller off, and speed be damned?

Steve,

Where is the contradiction? I would recommend thinking about what you post.

As to the idea that rolling does not compact. Any object moving across the green will cause some compaction however small but in the case of a green iron the benefits can out way the negatives. As for the research, I do not know much about it but its reliability would depend on who paid for it?

Jon

Jon,

You contradict yourself here in your reply #18:

When I rolled it was to allow me to cut 1.5mm higher and still have the same speed which was better for the sward overall so you can call me a liar if you want but I did it for an improved sward and not for speed.”

You say you rolled to increase the height of cut and maintain the same speed, but then again you’re not rolling for speed.  Why, then, are you rolling, if not to improve speed over what it would be without the roller?

I would say that the reliability of a study depends on the qualifications and integrity of the researcher.  I’ve heard these ad hominem attacks before. It seems to be a favorite tactic of certain British greenkeepers who would refute science in order to promote some preconceived notion or an agenda of some sort.

Here’s one study paid for by the University of Oregon and executed Dr. Rob Golembiewski  and published in the USGA Greens Section.     sr.lib.msu.edu/article/golembiewski-bluegrass-2-4-11.pdf

Another study by the University of Arkansas:    http://arkansasagnews.uark.edu/557-11.pdf

And the University of Michigan: http://turf.umn.edu/files/2012/09/Lightweight-rolling-around-the-world.pdf

There are many others. If you were interested, you could look them up yourself. Just Google “golf green rolling” and you’ll see a multitude of results.

American University researchers receive funding from many varied sources. Since the results of the rolling studies seem to be unfailingly consistent in the conclusions, either the studies are valid, or there is an elaborate conspiracy promoted by turf equipment manufacturers with tentacles into virtually ever turf research institute in the world in order to promote the nefarious and ultimately negative effects of lightweight rolling.

All the studies I’ve read come to the same conclusion: that moderated frequency of lightweight rolling does not harm the turf, but rather the opposite, it has several beneficial effects besides improved green speed (dollar spot resistance, surface smoothness, less stress on turf in general compared to mowing).

Now, if you can put forward any evidence to the contrary I would be happy to listen.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2014, 05:19:46 AM »



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You say you rolled to increase the height of cut and maintain the same speed, but then again you’re not rolling for speed.  Why, then, are you rolling, if not to improve speed over what it would be without the roller?


Steve,

I said I did not roll to increase the overall speed as you well know. What you wrote in the quote is a change over what you wrote in your first post which I replied to. If you want to make a point about contradicting then at least you should be consistent yourself.

Jon

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2014, 06:29:21 PM »
In addition to reduced disease occurrence they are finding that the rolling process has helped produce a lower, more compact crown on the plant which will help reduce the damage from crown hydration.  Considering the winter we're coming out of here in New England that'll be very helpful in the next few weeks.  When the people in the clubhouse, the people at the Universities and the Supers are all in agreement it's hard to argue...Rolling is good for greens.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2014, 05:47:50 AM »
In addition to reduced disease occurrence they are finding that the rolling process has helped produce a lower, more compact crown on the plant which will help reduce the damage from crown hydration.  Considering the winter we're coming out of here in New England that'll be very helpful in the next few weeks.  When the people in the clubhouse, the people at the Universities and the Supers are all in agreement it's hard to argue...Rolling is good for greens.

  I think you're spot on. Whether a roller is being used to increase speed or maintain speed, its still giving you speed you wouldn't get by just mowing, alone. If mowing at .110" allows for 11' on the stimp and mowing at .115" and rolling still allows for 11" on the stimp, you're gaining speed by rolling. This is where there seems to be some confusion in this thread.
  I was at MSU when Tom Nikolai developed his research on rolling and it's effect on greens. He has continued to present at the GCSAA National Conference for 10+ years his data, research and positive effect. We're able to mow higher, have less disease and have smoother, firmer, faster greens. Win, win, and win.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2014, 07:41:34 AM »
Anthony,
I know that at my club the roller has allowed me to have big budget greens without any increase in spending, and if anything I've been able to lower the rates of fungicides because I feel like the turf is better able to cope with the pressure from dollar spot.  All the while the golfers are loving the way they roll.  Best thing to happen in this industry in my 25 years.  I've been fortunate to hear Tom Nikolai speak a handful of times, he always impresses, you were fortunate to work with him.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2014, 10:10:58 AM »
RDecker,

just out of interest did you raise your HOC once you started using a green iron or were the improved health and lower fungicide use achieved at the same HOC and with faster green speeds?

Jon

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2014, 05:06:25 PM »
Jon,
My staff and budget have never allowed for alot of the extras that allow other clubs to get really fast greens.
I aerate and topdress once a season and never have a HOC below .110 so with that in mind the roller allowed
my greens to put like they were getting more sand and being scalped below .100 all without the stresses brought
on by those practices.  Conversely the guys who have been doing those things have been able to eliminate/reduce
the more harmful practices while maintaining the speed.  The Roller has been a very useful and valuable tool for Supers
across the spectrum of golf.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2014, 03:45:21 AM »
Thanks for the reply. So to be clear you kept the HOC the same.

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2014, 06:29:22 AM »
During the course of a season the heights go up and down depending on weather and play and turf health.  My heights didn't
change because of the roller just my results.  In the spring I gradually bring HOC down coming out of winter dormancy then slowly
increase HOC in late Fall to help promote hardening off.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2014, 06:40:04 AM »
Thanks for clarifying. I just realised that .110 inches is 2.8mm! That's just insane ;D I have a lot of respect that you can keep the grass alive at that height. I have never gone below 4.5mm which 0.177 inches and that was a only for a short time.

Jon

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2014, 01:48:45 PM »
What time of day is optimum for rolling?
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2014, 02:46:35 PM »
What time of day is optimum for rolling?

It depends who with? ;D

Jon

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2014, 04:01:35 PM »
Bentgrass may very well be the toughest living thing on this planet, it survives at ridiculously low heights, handles machinery and foot traffic, use very little water, bakes in the sun and then spends months frozen below a blanket of snow or in this year's case, ice.  Pound for pound it may be the toughest thing on earth.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2014, 06:16:45 PM »
Thanks for clarifying. I just realised that .110 inches is 2.8mm! That's just insane ;D I have a lot of respect that you can keep the grass alive at that height. I have never gone below 4.5mm which 0.177 inches and that was a only for a short time.

Jon

Is that a links course, Jon?

It maybe bad for the sward, but certainly most inland courses in the UK seem to be going much lower than 5 or 4.5mm

A lot seem to be waiting for the 2mm guy at Ealing GC to come unstuck, but it doesn't appear as if he has. Conventional wisdom says he has it wrong.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2014, 06:55:04 PM »
Ryan,

no, not links though one of my courses was very close. Though what he is doing is not in line with my philosophy but I think Greg Evans knows his stuff and is proving his ideas work very well.

Jon

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2014, 07:21:41 PM »
Jon Wiggett:

Being Irish I have struggled with low cut height my entire life but being an early riser makes first thing in the morning seem to be a way to smooth things out all day.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2014, 08:01:47 PM »
Thanks for clarifying. I just realised that .110 inches is 2.8mm! That's just insane ;D I have a lot of respect that you can keep the grass alive at that height. I have never gone below 4.5mm which 0.177 inches and that was a only for a short time.

Jon

Is that a links course, Jon?

It maybe bad for the sward, but certainly most inland courses in the UK seem to be going much lower than 5 or 4.5mm

A lot seem to be waiting for the 2mm guy at Ealing GC to come unstuck, but it doesn't appear as if he has. Conventional wisdom says he has it wrong.

2mm or .080 wouldn't be uncommon here in the States
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2014, 04:56:17 AM »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2014, 05:18:57 AM »
I'm glad I started this thread. The responses and debate has been most interesting so thanks to all who have contributed.

More thoughts and comments very welcome.

atb

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens 'iron' - a useful tool???
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2014, 09:55:47 AM »
Does anyone know if there has there been much/any research on pushup greens?