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Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Recently there was a post on ice plant that I found interesting but was mainly from the golfer´s points of view on the pro´s and con of this controversial ground cover. I would like to share my prospective from an Architect´s point of view and an overall more detailed perspective because in my opinion, ice plant is a viable tool for architects in the correct situation. I have been involved in one particular project in the north of Chile for more than ten years and have been experimenting and working with this ground cover extensively for the last five years trying to maximize the good attributes while keeping it playable and generally for the most part in out of play areas. This particular project is located in one of the driest parts of the planet with two to three inches of rain per year and those rains come in two of the winter months.  The main advantage which everybody knows is erosion control and the fact that it takes very little water in a small amount of time to establish and then it needs nothing in water in a humid environment like the coast. My experience has been that it grows native in a lot of these areas and we only transplanted it, in a few specific areas but is found throughout the project. The photo below is a testament how the sand is constantly moving from the winds coming off the ocean and as a result the erosion that takes place over time.


The area is associated with a micro climate that has only a few light frost per year and the summers are mild and short. Ice plant (Doaka in Spanish) does not tolerate hard frost or freezes but in our situation I consider it ideal because the infrequent light frost, set it back as does a few weeks of summer. Thus keeping it under control and preventing it from becoming super aggressive and over penal, if you happen to hit, a miss directed-bad shot and find your ball in one of these areas.

Typical lie that presents little or no problem but you still need to execute correctly.


Bad luck lie that is more challenging and produce results of five to fifty yard recovery shots! Good idea to not over use but I think there are places where it adds excitement.

Once the plant begins to partially cover bare sand areas and starts to stabilize the sand in general, then other native plants begin to germinate and some of these will produce other shades of color and texture which results in a final product with iteresting contrast.





An extensive 80 yard waste area separating holes 17 and 18, still in natural development!





Another advantage that I have found is in these natural sandy conditions is that you can take advantage and create some huge natural sand bunkers and using the ice plant on the outside edge furthest from the playing area. This makes a great natural and disorganized border without the need of adding irrigation to the outside border.










The character of the property in general, has three sets of main dunes and the routing was laid out in between the dunes in the mini valley´s. These dunes frame many hole and are for the most part, out of play but very visible and once again the ice plant works well in these out of play areas stabilizing the dunes without irrigation. The colors and contrast at different times of the year are incredible and sometimes there are five or six different colors at the same time.


The controversy starts when it is brought in to play but it is easy to get rid of if it ends up in an areas where you don´t want it to be. I have a few isolated areas where it comes into play and most of the time it is playable and the ball sits up, if the irrigation hits it, there are certain times of the year that it can get aggressive and the ball drop on down and the only thing you can do is punch it out. When this happens or it gets to this stage, we cut it with a rotary mower and in two week time it returns in a more acceptable form and once again playing and looking, like I want it to.

                                                        Recently cut!


At first, I tried controlling it but found the final look vanilla, typical and boring! This area is between the back tees and the front tee.


Same area shown in the photo above allowed to a natural state! You can see how the ice plant comes and goes!

                                               Another unusual practical application!
The photo below shows the seventh hole where we (Kelly and I) wanted to make a window with a view to the ocean. The developer added an extra apartment without consulting us and then called me and asked what could be done to protect the apartment because stray ball were creating a dangerous situation and they were getting complaints. They suggested a back stop baseball type screening or a lake. My first suggestion was tearing down the building and honoring the master plan but that went over like a lead balloon. So we added ice plant along the left side which you can see in the picture and we irrigated it to get it aggressive.



We created a river of ice plant acting as a buffer between the golf course and the apartment. Now for some reason nobody seem to go left on this hole!




If they do go left, the smart golfer doesn´t even look for his golf ball, this kind of lie is the lie that you can break you wrist and take ten strokes to get out. It’s the only place on the course like this and it has served its purpose and I like it more than a lake or a baseball backstop. Granted my first recommendation was better!


This is the same par three hole looking back on the tees. A different concept but not native by my definition because the majority of this area was planted. Teeing areas that weren´t spread out over great distances have this type of look. Should have I stuck to one theme for these areas???


A couple more tee surroundings


                        One more thing, nothing to do with ice plant but for me interesting
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The photo shows the natural mound to the right of six green. The shaper wanted to change the shape because in reality the mound was natural but the perception was not and we left it like that for the first five years. This mound ties into the tee surrounding of hole number seven with the river of ice plant. We fertilized it and added a couple of pampas grass plants as an introduction to the change in the upcoming theme of the tees surroundings.

[URL=http://s275.photobucket.com/user/agolf/media/DSC03605_zpse0896af8.jpg.html]

I like the final results and the mound ties in better without sticking out like a sore thumb and with no changes to the original shape.


This is taken from the eighteenth green looking back towards the clubhouse. As you exit the course and head for the club you have to pass one last patch of ice plant, that kind of says, Hasta Luego Bebe!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 01:24:04 AM by Randy Thompson »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 11:45:29 AM »
Randy T. -

Good luck with your project.

Based on what I have seen of ice plant in coastal Northern California, it is pretty nasty, aggressive stuff. It is not as bad as gorse, but it is worse than heather.

Yes, it grows quickly and will stabilize loose sandy soil. However, I really wonder if the maintenance team at this course will be able to keep it under control in the long term. Given how dry the climate is where you are, maybe it will not be that big a problem.
 
I also question whether or not it will allow other native plants to grow in and around it, as you suggest in your 4th picture. It would not surprise me if, over time, the ice plant crowds out/chokes any other native plants in the area.

DT   

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 02:49:19 PM »
David,
We opened the project 14 years ago. It went slowly down hill over the years and I consulted from time to time when things got bad. About six years ago they asked me to stay involved on a one day a month consulting basis which I have been doing but I usually stay for two to three days because I love the golf course and the área. You are correct in that if we irrigate the áreas it will dominate and choke out everything but with the light frost, some fungus and some hot periods it dies back and the natives can compete and are competing as you can see if you look closely at the pictures. The climate is a definte plus!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 09:01:06 PM »
Doaka, huh? Are you sure it's not Coora or Hansa?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2014, 11:21:01 PM »
There is simply no way to play a golf shot from an ice plant lie.  It cannot be done.  Period.  Take your drop and move on, if you're smart. 

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2014, 11:52:13 PM »
JCowden
Did you read any of the post? Did you look at any of the pictures?
Would you take a drop from this lie? I could hit a five wood 200 yards from this lie!

I respect your opinión but there are 300 members of this particular club that would disagree with you!

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2014, 12:09:38 AM »
Been there, tried to do that, failed, moved on.   Ice plant is as playable as gorse, IMHO. 

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 12:18:09 AM »
And no, Randy, I probably wouldn't be smart enough to take a drop from that lie.  I'd most likely try to advance the ball and suffer myriad adverse consequences for the effort.  Yes, it's a wonderful sand/soil stabilizer, as are many succulents, but for me, it's hell on my game.  Give me two foot high fescue any time over ice plant. 

Cheers.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 04:03:01 AM »
Randy

It strikes me that you are using iceplant the way heather is used; mitigates erosion, ties bunkers to the wings of the corridors and can act as a alternative hazard of varying degres of difficulty without compromising the views (although in you case the course may benefit from the buildings being blocked by trees  :D).  I don't know if iceplant flowers, but at least it also shares with heather the characteristic of adding texture to the course.   

I have never played in iceplant, but everyone on this site either hates it or accepts it begrudingly.  If it weren't so damn pretty, most would feel the same about heather - if not tightly controlled it is an awful hazard - especially if combined with trees!  I don't know if this is the same for iceplant, but one great thing heather signifies is dry golf.  I suspect iceplant grows in areas that are naturally sandy and crappy so there is an expectation that the courses will be more f&f - yes or no?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 06:16:09 AM »
I haven't encountered the stuff to my knowledge, but I think the look is appropriate. Have you got any pictures from sites where it went crazy out of control and became unmanageable?

Fescue, gorse, heather, chewing gum...practical humility should take over. The unplayable-lie option exists for such a simple reason. It's one stroke that you'll doubtless make up somewhere, especially after you congratulate yourself for not risking injury to one of your wrist bones.

What options did you weigh, Randy, before settling on the ice plant?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 07:16:58 AM »
Ronald,

Excellently put.

I'm a little bemused as to what all the fuss is about. If golf had originated on a different part of the planet we'd now be having the same conversation about heather. If the stuff grows naturally in Chile and does the job it's doing I can't for the life of me fathom why it would be objected to.

I for one love the look of what Randy is doing and the ethos it comes from.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 11:17:13 AM »
"I don't know if iceplant flowers"

Sean A. -

Iceplant does flower during the year and it does change color with the season. From a distance, it can look attractive.

Like kikuyu grass, it is a native of South Africa. Like gorse, it grows aggressively and can overwhelm native vegetation. Since it is a succulent, it absorbs & retains moisture, denying the native plants and grasses in the area of that moisture. Over time it can even change the nature of the soil in which it grows. Nasty stuff.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/habcon/plant/dontplantme/carpobrotus.html

DT

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 11:26:24 AM »
When I played Pacific Grove a little while back it was everywhere,  but I don't know if it still there. I will see if I can find one of my photos of it taking over areas. Pretty to look at but not my favorite to play from, assuming you can find it.

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 11:41:56 AM »
It's also quite prominent on Spyglass' "sandier" holes near the ocean, nos. 2-5.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 11:43:40 AM »
Sean
The buildings are the cancer and at the same time the heart of the project. The cancer part needs no explanation and I consider it also to be the heart of the project because without them the project would have folded, a long time ago. The natural terrain of 600ha has no trees, so for me they would be out of place and would block the view for the residents of the golf course. Yes it flowers and has a rather long flower season but these pictures were taken recently at the end of our summer. The two most common varieties have yellow or purple flowers. 95% of the areas where the ice plant is found has no direct contact with irrigation but some areas without a doubt will receive mist during windy irrigation cycles. Fast and firm will be incorporated in the future as we are gradually changing the ryegrass based fairways contaminated with a growing percentage of agrostis, to a fescue mix with 30% of an improved bluegrass.

Ronald,
There is a picture in the post where it is crazy and unmanageable and quite unplayable because as explained, that is how we wanted it and the justification is also explained. I did not choose ice plant, mother nature did, I only choose to live with it and let it do what it wanted to. The majority of these areas are out of play and typically sixty to eighty yards to the left or right of the designated line of play and thus not irrigated. Many golfers seem accustomed and have no problems with out of bounds, lakes and two foot high fescue when they hit a miss directed shot by sixty to eighty yards, so what´s the problem. In this course, when you do that, you can expect any one of the following:
a. bare native fine sand    b. a native shrub with an unplayable lie   c. bare sand with your ball in a horse or human foot print  d. Ice plant with a 90 percent chance of advancing the ball in some form with the correct execution and 10% chance of it being unplayable. Depending on your lie, you need to know, when to hold them and when to fold them. It becomes an art and if you execute correctly, you are rewarded and if you don´t, you pay the price and start to cuss yourself, why didn´t I do this or that as happens so often in good golf experiences in my opinion. Then there are those that don´t want to except they made a mistake in execution or chose the wrong club or strategy and blame the ice plant or architect.
We have had to do very little control and very little transplanting. Two or three times during the last ten years we have had to thin out a few areas and it pulls up easy and fast and once or twice we have  sprayed using a back pack sprayer with round up. In this project I would not consider it low maintenance, its more like, no maintenance.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2014, 11:54:41 AM »
It's also quite prominent on Spyglass' "sandier" holes near the ocean, nos. 2-5.

Not any more.  The Pebble Beach company removed it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ice plant: Its not for everybody but it doesn´t try to be!
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2014, 12:34:09 PM »


Ronald,
There is a picture in the post where it is crazy and unmanageable and quite unplayable because as explained, that is how we wanted it and the justification is also explained. I did not choose ice plant, mother nature did, I only choose to live with it and let it do what it wanted to. The majority of these areas are out of play and typically sixty to eighty yards to the left or right of the designated line of play and thus not irrigated. Many golfers seem accustomed and have no problems with out of bounds, lakes and two foot high fescue when they hit a miss directed shot by sixty to eighty yards, so what´s the problem. In this course, when you do that, you can expect any one of the following:
a. bare native fine sand    b. a native shrub with an unplayable lie   c. bare sand with your ball in a horse or human foot print  d. Ice plant with a 90 percent chance of advancing the ball in some form with the correct execution and 10% chance of it being unplayable. Depending on your lie, you need to know, when to hold them and when to fold them. It becomes an art and if you execute correctly, you are rewarded and if you don´t, you pay the price and start to cuss yourself, why didn´t I do this or that as happens so often in good golf experiences in my opinion. Then there are those that don´t want to except they made a mistake in execution or chose the wrong club or strategy and blame the ice plant or architect.
We have had to do very little control and very little transplanting. Two or three times during the last ten years we have had to thin out a few areas and it pulls up easy and fast and once or twice we have  sprayed using a back pack sprayer with round up. In this project I would not consider it low maintenance, its more like, no maintenance.


Looks great
no doubt climate specific-a bit like heather

far prefer to 2 foot ground cover dujour (2 foot fescue ::) ::))
if it's no, or low, maintenance it's got that beat as well
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey