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Eric Smith

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White v. Red
« on: March 14, 2014, 11:03:52 PM »
The debate that couldn't wait!

or..

We will sell no wine before its time?

Take it away, Orson...http://youtu.be/VFevH5vP32s?t=22s



OW: Ahhh...A question I am often asked is "Which do you pair with the pork chop - white or red?" To which my reply is to leave such decisions until AFTER the golf, suggesting that BOTH go nicely with all of the culinary and varietal delights at Dismal River..

Thank you, Mr. Welles, and thank you, GCA, for indulging me. My intent is to have a little fun with the names of our courses, and, generally, to have a little fun with everything else, while you get your questions and commentary ready for what promises to be a riveting exercise in free publicity for Paul Masson.

Very well. I present you a GCA match play thread pitting the White and the Red courses at Dismal River against one another in an internet blood bath most likely NOT to earn a Neti Award for brevity / bandwidth.

---

Although situated side-by-side, the two courses at Dismal are quite distinctive in their design and topography, and, in my opinion, complement one another superbly. I've yet to identify a clear favorite, though I imagine you'd have a hard time convincing me not to head straight for the first tee of the White on my next visit. Old habits really do die hard.  

The White Course opened for play in 2006. Designed by Jack Nicklaus, the course, then known simply as Dismal River, was Nicklaus's 250th design. The course has had a history of eliciting strong and often polarizing opinions from internet and magazine pundits alike. [See Matt Ward's write-up on GCA, Brad Klein's notebook in GOLFWEEK and Tom Dunne's review in DEPARTURES Magazine]. For this member, it was love at first sight. Massive dunes. Blind shots. Discernible quirk. (A windmill in front of the green? Hello!) Punchbowls. Sideboards. Backstops. Attributes that, at the end of the day, add up to FUN each and every time I go around it.

The new Red Course, designed and built by Tom Doak and his team at Renaissance Golf Design, (with an assist from Don Mahaffey), opened for preview play last summer. I would describe the course as having a more refined character than Nicklaus's design (OW: with hints of elderberry, finnel and mountain shrubs adding to its complexity). It is an extremely attractive golf course, being much more 'communal' throughout, with very wide playing areas, allowing for long views to other nearby holes. The routing takes you through a variety of interesting terrain, culminating along the banks of the river, underneath the shadows of some enormous sand hills. 2014 will be the Red's first full season out of the cask and we should see the fescue further tightening to create a more consistent playing surface throughout the course.

Hopefully, via match play, we will be able to expand on specific elements that differentiate the courses from one another. I'll need some assistance, as Orson and I may be zonkered before we get to the next hole. I encourage those who know Dismal to please chime in, and, by all means, score the match! I'd also ask those who haven't played them to fire away and ask questions (!) so that we may all, hopefully, learn a few things. For simplicity's sake, let's stick with match play (win, loss, tie) as our scoring format.

Without further ado, let's head out (in our carts) to the White Course.

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The first tee of the White Course is one of my favorite spots in golf and a real eye opener for the first time sand hills visitor. You're standing there among these majestic sand dunes, prairie grasses waving in the wind, without a tree or bush in sight. Just these glorious green ribbons of fairway along with a smattering of exposed sand pits rising in the distance. It is so different than any place I've ever been. I liken it to how I might imagine the surface of some far off distant planet. A desolate, windswept plane under a vast and endless sky. Dismal? Hardly.

Hole 1

   

The first is a mid length par 4 measuring a little more than 400 yards from the square tees nearest the practice green. The fairway here is generous, but a roving eye will undoubtedly be drawn toward the nest of gnarly bunkers cut into the base of the hill on the left hand side of the fairway. You do not want to find yourself in there, so focus instead on the path beyond the crown of the hogsback. Get your ball on a line just left of it to have a better look at what's around the corner.

The tee shot has always suited me. Reason #1 why I love the hole. After a pot of coffee and 4 Advil, my early morning push draw is fairly reliable enough to get it out onto the top of the hill..



The goal though is to carry it far enough to catch the down slope of the hill, which will propel the ball an extra 50-75 yards, leaving 100 yards or so to the green. What a fun green too. A large tiered punchbowl, stretched more like a bathtub, provides a much appreciated helping hand at the start of the day.



Red 1 to follow..



« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 10:57:25 AM by Eric Smith »

Sam Morrow

Re: White v. Red
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2014, 11:06:17 PM »
Do you have a really good picture of the slope on the left side, until you're in that fairway you don't realize how significant it is.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 01:13:17 AM »
Do you have a really good picture of the slope on the left side, until you're in that fairway you don't realize how significant it is.

I think so. Will try to post it in the morning. 

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 11:59:51 AM »
Can't find a photo of that slope specifically so will have to rely on Sam's good judgement.

I apologize for the delay and will resume posting hole 1 of the Red at the conclusion of the Tennessee / Florida game.

Go Vols

Peter Pallotta

Re: White v. Red
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2014, 12:13:14 PM »
Eric - if you don't mind too much, I will leave no opinion or observation un-posted, no matter how half-baked or uniformed. White #1 strikes me as the perfect opener: a non-par 5 gentle handshake (you can, after all, get within a 100 yards of a 400 yard Par 4 with enough coffee and advil in you) that doesn't immediately appear to be a gentle handshake, and from an elevated tee that's elevated just enough for the golfer to be able to take in the striking vista and to whet his appetite for what lies ahead, but not so elevated that you feel like a fraud if you do managed to hit one out there a long way. And finally, a large and seemingly welcoming green, but so designed as to put an early choice in the golfer's mind: do I fly in a wedge, high and to the pin, or is it too early to try bumping/punching one in low, especially if the pin is on the back tier?

Oh my, me thinks that young Tommy D will have to be at the top of his game with Red #1 to outdo the wily old major champion who's grown gentler (and surprisingly hipper) with the passing of the years -- a veteran who may not play other architect's courses, but who nonetheless notices everything going on around him.

(A very very good introduction, btw, thanks).

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 12:45:46 PM by PPallotta »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2014, 02:23:58 PM »
Peter,

Thank you. I'm thrilled you've chosen to participate in the match.  

As you mentioned regarding the green at the first, options abound as to how to play your approach. From down near the 100 yard marker the flag is completely hidden so it is imperative to check it out from the top of the hill in order to know which approach to take. I have putted from down there, flown it in high, and when feeling frisky, played a bank shot off the side of the hill. Always a lot of fun when you crest the slope to see how you did!
 

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2014, 02:34:12 PM »


Having seen the Red Course grow from a twinkle in CJ and TD's eyes to now has been an incredibly satisfying experience. I mean serious fun. During the construction of the course I even got to man the hydroseed hose on the fairway of the second hole. You'll find the best turf on the course there on the slope nearest that mammoth bunker. ;D



1 green October 2011


1 green October 2012


1 tee July 2013


1 fairway July 2013


The first hole is a nice opener, a short par 5, when the wind cooperates, but not as friendly a handshake as she looks with a center line bunker annoyingly situated precisely where this golfer wants to place his second shot! On my last visit I played the hole twice, each time finding the little bugger.

As I've mentioned before in other Dismal threads, 1 is my least favorite hole on the course. It's still a good hole, and does a nice job of getting up the hill and over to 2 tee, where the course opens up to some amazing holes with the long vistas mentioned in my opening post.

Anyone else reminded of 12 White when playing this one? Both being straight away par 5's working their way up a hill?

White #1 is one of my favorites on that course so it wins this match up.

White 1 up.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2014, 06:36:18 PM »
I think the stark contrast of the two courses can be seen right out of the shoot.

#1 on the Nicklaus (White) is a thrill ride full of mystery, blind shots, and wild contours.  If the wind is in my face and I'm playing the back tees, carrying the massive fairway ridge is TOUGH.  And the reward for actually carrying that ridge and rolling down into the basin is HUGE.  Without accomplishing that, the hole becomes a real bear...and having multiple plays under your belt is key in that situation as the blindness is a major factor.  And at the green the real fun starts.  Using the banks for feed the ball...and using the green contours...is a lot of fun.

#1 on the Doak (Red) appears to be the gentle handshake of an opener.  But the bunker placement is so good, that many times they sneak up on you and grab your ball.  And then that ridge in the green...subtle (kind of), but a major factor in trying to score on the hole.

For me to pick a winner in our match play contest is tough...because it really depends on what kind of golf I'm looking to play.  If I want to take the traditional solid gold academy award winning critics choice of a golf hole, it is Red.  If I want to embrace the truly unique golf that one can only find trekking many miles to play the wild White course, then, of course, it is White.  What mood am I in?  Is it my first 18...or am I embarking on my second 18 of the day?  You really do have your choice at at Dismal.

But, I'm picking Red for the winner of the hole.  Why?  Well, I'll tell you.   :D

At times, White will be the best hole for the mood I'm in while at Dismal.  Incredibly good, thrilling, one of a kind.  But, if the wind is up...I'm playing 36 for the 3rd day in a row...it may not be my choice.  And EVERY time, Red will be a great hole. 

Red one up on my card.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2014, 07:28:02 PM »
at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak
It's all about the golf!

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2014, 08:08:09 PM »
Eric,
In general red ages much better than white

Jim Tang

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Re: White v. Red
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2014, 09:26:05 PM »
Eric -

Thanks for starting this.  I've not been to Dismal River.  I am looking forward to this thread. 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2014, 09:32:19 PM »
fwiw, I'm a stupid human and this red white thing with the flowers and the flags is odd at best IMHO  8)
It's all about the golf!

Sam Morrow

Re: White v. Red
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2014, 10:29:40 PM »
at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak


You felt like you could lose a ball?

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2014, 11:18:12 PM »
The beauty of DR is that no choice need be made.  Play them both, same day, next day, following day.   How cool is that?   With apologies for avoiding the question, Eric, I call the match even on the first tee.  I'm just so pumped to be there, on either one's one, that there's nary a thought of another one. 

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 08:54:51 AM »
Red #1, tee shot. Fall 2012.

Red #1, fairway, Summer 2013.

Red, #1 approach, fall 2012.

Red #1 Fairway, 2013.

I can't find any pics of White, still searching my Photobucket.
The subtlety of Red vs the bold #1 white?
White 1 up.

Matt Glore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2014, 09:01:36 AM »
Standing on White number 1 is one of the best visuals I've ever experienced in golf.  It was the first shot of Sandhill golf, the wind was dead left to right about 25. 

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2014, 10:53:56 AM »
at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak


You felt like you could lose a ball?

And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)

More seriously, I think I get  the point about what it looks like.  Interestingly and I think tellingly about the nature of each course: White looks like you'll lose a ball but probably won't; red looks like you can't but you might.

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2014, 11:23:02 AM »
Red #1, tee shot. Fall 2012.

Red #1, fairway, Summer 2013.

Red, #1 approach, fall 2012.

Red #1 Fairway, 2013.

I can't find any pics of White, still searching my Photobucket.
The subtlety of Red vs the bold #1 white?
White 1 up.

Kind of shocking to see tall rough bordering both sides?  Looks like a nightmare for the 18 handicap with a gigantic slice ;D.  I'm guessing many will complain about the 'lack of trees and/or chance for (my new favorite) exciting recoveries' from 50 yard misses.

Do or re-load - I like it!
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Sam Morrow

Re: White v. Red
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2014, 11:49:48 AM »
at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak


You felt like you could lose a ball?

And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)

More seriously, I think I get  the point about what it looks like.  Interestingly and I think tellingly about the nature of each course: White looks like you'll lose a ball but probably won't; red looks like you can't but you might.

Wellmon is a tremendous slouch.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2014, 11:59:07 AM »
Joe,

#1 on Red is most certainly NOT do or re-load.  In fact, the maintenance and design of the course make it VERY playable.

My first tee shot on the course was fade up the right side.  But right about 200-250 yards out the fairways bows way out on the right side to help save those kind of shots from the gunch.  That bailout area is blind off the tee, but it is there.  But them you have to come in from a bad angle with that right side fairway bunker in your line of play.  I suppose Tom and his crew figured the extra bunker in play was penalty enough... and they were right.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Greg Krueger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2014, 12:05:41 PM »
Eric, great thread and timing with the 5th Major about a hundred days away! While I have not played the Red I have walked it. My vote goes to the Red.

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2014, 12:05:50 PM »
Joe,

#1 on Red is most certainly NOT do or re-load.  In fact, the maintenance and design of the course make it VERY playable.

My first tee shot on the course was fade up the right side.  But right about 200-250 yards out the fairways bows way out on the right side to help save those kind of shots from the gunch.  That bailout area is blind off the tee, but it is there.  But them you have to come in from a bad angle with that right side fairway bunker in your line of play.  I suppose Tom and his crew figured the extra bunker in play was penalty enough... and they were right.

Mac,

I love the fairway width and from the pictures, it looks very playable.  You are saying normally they mow the border rough down?  It looks very thick.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2014, 12:16:23 PM »
Joe,

NO.

Not the border, the fairway. The fairway bows out on the right.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2014, 01:21:09 PM »
at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak


You felt like you could lose a ball?

And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)


It's a good angle from the left side.   ;)

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White v. Red
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2014, 01:24:22 PM »
at the first tee on the Nicklaus, you feel as though you could lose a golf ball, not so at the Doak


You felt like you could lose a ball?

And you can't lose a ball on the red? Why do you think Wellmon was standing in the gunge for his #1 approach photo? :)

More seriously, I think I get  the point about what it looks like.  Interestingly and I think tellingly about the nature of each course: White looks like you'll lose a ball but probably won't; red looks like you can't but you might.

Wellmon is a tremendous slouch.

My handicap is up, I'm a bigger slouch this year.