White v. Red

[Jim Tang]

Eric -

I'm enjoying the tour.  Once again, thanks for posting this thread. 

Several questions for you or anyone who has played at Dismal River.  Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box?  How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?

You also state # 2 is a half par hole.  It looks like a beast.  Is there a way to make an easy bogey on the hole? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Eric -

I'm enjoying the tour.  Once again, thanks for posting this thread.  

Several questions for you or anyone who has played at Dismal River.  Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box?  How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?

You also state # 2 is a half par hole.  It looks like a beast.  Is there a way to make an easy bogey on the hole?  

Yea, three putt.

[John Cowden]

Peter, your virgin perspective is refreshing.   Dismal offers a surfeit of golf riches.  While my personal preference of nos. 2 is red, white is always a serious mental challenge; how much of my "power fade" do I dare accommodate?  It's a difficult challenge on only the second tee box.   I welcome the challenge, but I prefer the red's tee shot and exciting second to an open green if you've  positioned correctly (and can control that power fade  on the second shot). 

[Brandon Urban]

[/quote]

I must give credit to the fine hotographers who have assisted me with the thread. The tee shot at 2 White was taken by Tyler Kearns. As were several others. Also, photos by Brandon Urban, Mike Hogan and Bruce Wellmon have been featured thus far. Including the ass pic of the dude carrying a Mackenzie bag. More to come.
[/quote]

I thought that pic from the tee of #1 Red looked familiar

I've failed to chime in due to my children eating up all of my free time, but I'll try something short and sweet here.
#1 - Love the tee shot on White. Love the second and third shots on Red. Red 1 up.
#2 - tee shot on White terrifies me because I love to hit a sissy, flailing fade quite often. During my hundred hile hike on Red last year, I grew to love #2 so much by the end of the day. Mostly because, as Eric said, you're always still in it. By the seventh play of the day the drives aren't going very far and you're 260 yards out when you reach your tee ball. But you can run something along the ground, get it close to the green and at least have a chance at a 4. On White, I've been in my pocket a lot.... mostly because of my abilities, but there is also a ton of trouble lurking on each shot. Red 2 up thru 2.
Thanks for doing this thread Eric. Should be fun. I'll see if I can dig up some more pictures tomorrow.

[Sam Morrow]

I think 2 White is my least favorite hole on the front but I vaguely remember that beautiful quote that Eric attributes to me. I also recall finding 6 of Eric's ProV's in that gunch.

[Eric Smith]

I think 2 White is my least favorite hole on the front but I vaguely remember that beautiful quote that Eric attributes to me. I also recall finding 6 of Eric's ProV's in that gunch.

Dead men tell no tales.

[Peter Pallotta]

Taking it upon myself of all people to set the stage for the next round, as I guess most of the other participants are too busy with their succesful and multi-platformed lives to get a move on! (And Chris - I remember the invite very fondly, and with ever greater appreciation. I hope to one day be able to take you up on it).

An interesting one coming up: we have a Par 3 3rd on White and a Par 3 3rd on Red, and from what I've seen on past threads my first thought is to say that the tables have been turned i.e. White starts interesting and tough while Red starts interesting, but just when you thought you'd be strolling along the Red with the casual ease of Ben Crenshaw after his first smoke of the day, Tom D ratches it up with a long, tough, interesting and aesthetically pleasing/natural looking hole, while the old veteran gives the hoi-polloi a break from the tough opening with a charming but not daunting mid-length hole.  (Interesting contrasts in approaches -- bam, bam, la di da versus la di da di da, bam.) I will have to wait to see fresh photos and write ups before casting my vote, but let's just say I knew this was not going to be a cakewalk, and that our Tommy has more tricks up his sleeve than a magician, the Houdini of MIT.

Peter

[Eric Smith]

Eric -

I'm enjoying the tour.  Once again, thanks for posting this thread. 

Several questions for you or anyone who has played at Dismal River.  Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box?  How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?

You also state # 2 is a half par hole.  It looks like a beast.  Is there a way to make an easy bogey on the hole? 

Jim,

Thanks. The thread is partly therapeutic - It's helping me learn to pace myself as I tend to rush things. Also to remind me that discussing Dismal is fun - despite the another Dismal thread crowd - and that everyone who goes out there discusses and compares the two courses at the end of the day.

To your question about the line off the tee - a good line is the right edge of the fairway. A big gulp, I know! For the second, the pot bunker further up the fairway pretty much serves as a guide to where the green is...you basically want to stay to the left of it. The fairway begins to cant just a bit left to right once you're beyond the pot bunker and then falls away towards the green, feeding the ball onto the putting surface.

Is there a way to make an easy bogey? Sure. Play a 3 or 5 wood, favoring the left hand side of the fairway, repeat, then a pitch down the hill. Assuming a 2 putt, of course!

[Eric Smith]

Dismal White 



Hole 3 coming up..

[William_G]

elevation about 3300 feet

[Eric Smith]

Hole 3

White


Red

Photo: Cliff Walston

Both holes are a gas, with interesting and sometimes scary greens. Both also have major hazards beckoning. Card wreckers they be. Arr!

The option to play more than one type of shot into Tom's green causes me to choose it over the White here.

Red wins. Red +1.

[Mac Plumart]

John Lyon calls Dismal White (Nicklaus) a "Short" hole.  I think he is spot on.  In addition to having to carry the gorge, and the cool contours of the green, the bunkering is beautiful and fierce.  Great hole!

Dismal Red (Doak) is a cool hole.  It just lacks the character at the green, like the White's #3 does.

White wins the 3rd hole.

Match stands at +1 for Red on the MRP Scorecard.

[Keith OHalloran]

Eric,
Can you discuss the different shot choices into #3 on the Doak course (that color talk always confuses me).

Also, how does the choice of teeing ground play into the shot selection?

[Eric Smith]

Eric,
Can you discuss the different shot choices into #3 on the Doak course (that color talk always confuses me).

Also, how does the choice of teeing ground play into the shot selection?

Keith,

Playing from the white tees where Cliff's photo was taken (150ish) allows for a one hop shot onto the green. I've seen it done on Jack's hole maybe once before, but the slope there is more severe.

From where you and I last played the Red, up near 2 green, forget about it! All carry and tough to stop it from there.

[Kyle Casella]

Eric,
Can you discuss the different shot choices into #3 on the Doak course (that color talk always confuses me).

Also, how does the choice of teeing ground play into the shot selection?

Keith,

Playing from the white tees where Cliff's photo was taken (150ish) allows for a one hop shot onto the green. I've seen it done on Jack's hole maybe once before, but the slope there is more severe.

From where you and I last played the Red, up near 2 green, forget about it! All carry and tough to stop it from there.

How steep and firm is that slope in front of Red? It looks like it would be pretty hard to run it up given the steepness unless the shot was played pretty close to the right side near the tall grass and bunker.

[Peter Pallotta]

The veteran has done much to make the short par 3 on White look good (as if, again, the green was found there) and to play interestingly/challenging, but it is on most days I assume a 7 or 8 iron; while on this hole Tommy has the longer Red engage on several fronts at once, including aesthetics and the options offered both by the length and the green surrounds.

So, after 3 holes, PJP scores it: DRW, 1 up.

[Eric Smith]

Kyle,

The slope is significant, but no need to worry about the firmness out there with the sand and tightly mown fescue. Dial down a trapped 6 iron all day long toward the right half of the entrance and see what comes up. I had a lot of fun at Bandon Trails recently playing this type of shot on similar slopes...I thought all of us did this.

[Mac Plumart]

Ah, yes...the trap draw with a 6 iron.  A fine choice.  But I prefer to play the weak and sloppy slice on nearly all my shots.   

[Chris Shaida]

Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box?  How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?

Jim, there really is little in the architecture of 2W to aim at or even 'tell' you where to hit it.  It will be interesting to get your observations as you view the White course through these photos.  I think one of the really interesting things about the design of the White is both the sheer number of blind shots AND the fact that a good chunk of those blind shots don't give the first-timer a clue about what to do.  My hunch is that this might be a significant element in the polarized opinions -- those who play once or twice are put off in a big way by theses shots vs those who play multiple times who view those very same shots as interesting/intriguing (since they've learned the 'secrets')

[Mac Plumart]

Since the tee shot at 2 White is blind, does Nicklaus give you anything to aim at from the box?  How does a golfer know the line if they have never played the course before?

Jim, there really is little in the architecture of 2W to aim at or even 'tell' you where to hit it.  It will be interesting to get your observations as you view the White course through these photos.  I think one of the really interesting things about the design of the White is both the sheer number of blind shots AND the fact that a good chunk of those blind shots don't give the first-timer a clue about what to do.  My hunch is that this might be a significant element in the polarized opinions -- those who play once or twice are put off in a big way by theses shots vs those who play multiple times who view those very same shots as interesting/intriguing (since they've learned the 'secrets')

Reminds me of a conversation I had with someone while playing golf in Ohio.  Hmmm...

[Chris Shaida]

(apropos of that Ohio conversation, I'm now thinking that we call the two types 'blind' and 'double blind,' since with the former you can't see the landing area and the latter you can't see the landing area AND you can't really 'see' where to hit the ball (as has been noted, you can eventually 'learn' and then remember where you're supposed to hit it but you still can't 'see' it in the surrounding landscape).  hmmm...) 

[John Kavanaugh]

"I like really difficult third holes where you won't make your round but you just might lose it." "A tie."

[Mac Plumart]

A tie!!!!  C'mon Kavanaugh...grow a pair...make a pick.

 

[Bruce Wellmon]

3 White is particularly frightening with a front pin and difficult to hold with a back pin. But, there is lots of room long.  A very good "short."
3 Red, when I walked the course on Tom Doak's tour in 2012, scared the daylights out of me due to the bunker on the right that looks as if an asteroid or UFO crashed into the Earth right there. I could see never getting out of there, it is so deep. And big. Whether I have just gotten used to it over the past 18 months, or the tee angle shifted slightly, it doesn't scare me as much now.
Lack of fear = Push. Still all square.
Move that tee over just a wee bit, where one has to REALLY consider it.........
I say someone's going to hit metal or rock in that bunker one day, there's something down there. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Jim Tang]

Wow!  Both great pictures.  Love the contrast of colors.  Do the holes on each course tend to play in isolation from one another or do you get longer views where other holes are visible from different vantage points?