White v. Red

[Eric Smith]

7
Portrait in Sepia

I will judge the 7th holes based solely on these photos taken during the single elimination playoffs at the last couple of 5th Majors.

7 White
437 Par 4
2012 5th Major Playoff


7 Red
388 Par 4
2013 5th Major Playoff


Red wins and goes to +1.

[Keith OHalloran]

Eric,
Please don't feel forced to make this thread less than it is. I would like to see some discussion on the seventh holes.

[Chris Johnston]

Eric - F.U.N. thread!

I do not think Cap'n Sims is wrong in his view that the Red course has better flow, that's his view and I happen to concur.  However, I believe the exercise at hand is a hole-to-hole contest.  In the Sandhills, there are a ton of great holes and many seem surprised how high many hold the White course.  Me?  I'm proud of them both, they "feel" and play different, and that is a good thing.  Variety abounds and (to me) sameness is an utter bore.

I do think Cap'n Sims (having previously spent time with him) probably would have chosen different words rather than the appearance of questioning motives of the people participating in, and adding to, the thread.  They too, are entitled to their opinion on what looks to be a fun oriented thread.  We aren't curing disease here.

I also think its cool to see both members, guests, and people who were involved alike excited about special and unique golf holes.  That really is the name of the game.  So far, not a stinker in the bunch!  I bet some here are surprised!

My own opinion is the Red may be the best course built in a very, very long time, and it certainly needs some time to mature.  Unique and truly outstanding site, outstanding architecture and flow, great variety and fun holes, a lot of turf to mow but innovative in spades.  Simple, beautiful.  All who played it last year did so when the course wasn't officially open, and we have added a cool bridge to ease a walking constraint so I expect to see Lou do so this June .  We'll see how she comes out of winter and then determine when we will have the official opening - we have no reason to be in a hurry.  It may be this year, it may even be next year.  These things take time, just as it takes time to learn a course.

My own scorecard:

Hole 1:  Push between to very fun starters.
Hole 2:  Red wins +1 with an outstanding hole.  White may catch up after some enhancements under consideration.
Hole 3:  Push between two neat 3 pars.
Hole 4:  Push between two really fun yet hard to compare holes.
Hole 5:  Red wins +2, White may close the gap after some enhancements under consideration.
Hole 6:  Red wins +3, White may win after some enhancements under consideration.
Hole 7:  Push on two challenging 4 pars.  I do love the distant blowout backdrop on Red 7!

Thanks again, Eric.  Passion matters!

[Michael Moore]

My own opinion is the Red may be the best course built in a very, very long time

Is that the one that serves the fist-sized pork chop?

[Sam Morrow]

I've missed quite a bit but one thing that struck me is how nobody seems to hit the fairway on Nicklaus 6.  In however many go arounds it seemed like there were lots of balls in the gunch despite being one of the few holes where most guys didn't hit driver.

[Peter Pallotta]

Eric - yes, stay in this if you will. Like Chris J, I'd like to think that Ben probably would've preferred to use words that didn't appear to be questioning anyone's motives. (If he actually was, I don't know why folks do that -- it's seems so much easier and more respectful to say "I think you're wrong".) Anyway, on to the No. 7s, and here again that crazy thing called personal preference (even when it doesn't serve one's own ends) comes into play. From other places I've looked at, the Red's Par 4 is (not surprisingly) challenging and interesting and ends with a terrific green; normally I'd give that the 'win', but darn if I don't have an unusual affection for dog-leg lefts, like White's long Par 4. Most of the time, I am the classic rabbit who wants to feel like a tiger; but this is mitigated by my underlying search for truth in all things, and so once in a while I want the architect to pull no punches, to present an honest and straightforward challenge that is above my weight and that says openly and without apology: "This is for tigers; you rabbits will have to play for a 5, and you'll get your 5, but only if you're honest enough and humble enough to admit your own rabbitness to yourself". I think it's good for the soul for a golfer to confront this at least a few times around, and White's #7 achieves this end admirably. For the second time on the front 9, I see this hole as halved.

So, after 7 holes of the Dismal River Challenge, the status remains unchanged, and PJP scores it (on the only scorecard that matters) DR Red - 1 up.

PJP

Edit: Chris J - I've never been to DR and even if I had been you certainly don't need my advice, but what's all this 'enhancements under consideration' on some of the White's opening holes?  Again, just the opinion of one set of eyes, but to me the white has a terrific stretch of opening holes there, and they look fine just as they are. I hope one thing under consideration is giving those holes and the course a chance to 'breathe' -- to be the course it wants/was meant to be even if not everyone immediately jumps up and down about it. (I have a feeling that one of the reasons we love some of the hundred year old courses we love, especially those in the UK, is that they got to breathe for decades and decades until most of their early critics were too old or too dead to care, and by then the course's uniqueness was so well established that no one dared change them.)  

[Jim Nugent]

As much as I'm enjoying this thread, I have to wonder how the competition will fare in another year or two, after Red plays the way it was designed and built to play, but has not yet had time to grow into. 

[Mac Plumart]

White 7 is a classically good golf hole.  Longer par 4 which plays downhill on the tee shot and uphill on the approach.  Bunkers on the inside of the dogleg to catch greedy shots and an elevate green with unique slopes that can be used to feed the ball to the hole (watch Kavanagh play, it. Wow!).

Red 7 is a solid hole, but my least favorite on the course.  For me, the tee shot is a bit awkward and although the fairway does open up over the mound off to the right, I'm still not sure how much.  

White wins. White +1 on MRP scorecard.

[Mike Hogan]

I am a little late to the party but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents. On my scorecard I have the Red course up by 2.

I have played the white course 8 or 9 times and the red 2 or 3 rounds. I also admit that I am a little biased toward courses that call for the ground game and I love using a putter whenever possible.

Brian S here is a picture of #7 from the tee. Ideal drive is over large bunker on right giving you a nice view of the green, although when I played I tended to play safe out to the left which left a blind approach.

[Thomas Dai]

White 2

Are those cattle in the distance and, if so, how are they kept off the course - is there is hidden valley/fence keeping them away?

Is the green in the background (on the left in the photo) being hand-mown?

I love this landscape. Seems like you could put a million holes out there and still have room for more.

atb

[Bruce Wellmon]

On the iPhone again.
7 White is probably the most traditional hole on the course. Long and stout. Probably a 4.5 par for me. The uphill second shot is quite long.
7 Red. Like Mac I'm thinking the play is further right off the tee than what looks correct. And for some reason I can not get the uphill approach correct on this hole. From the back tees, this is a completely different hole. Then, the bunker dominates your choice off the tee.
Tradition wins. White.
All square.

[Tyler Kearns]

7
Portrait in Sepia

I will judge the 7th holes based solely on these photos taken during the single elimination playoffs at the last couple of 5th Majors.

7 White
437 Par 4
2012 5th Major Playoff

Eric,

One of the things I enjoy about the white course is the options available around the greens.  In the above photo, I had no desire to flirt with the false front/steep approach and risk a big number and get knocked out, so I opted to use the big slope left of the green and filter my chip back to around 15 feet to guarantee at worst a 5.

TK

[Tyler Kearns]

The 7th hole white red looked very narrow in the landing area when Doak led us around in the dirt a few years ago, and checking on google today it still appears that way.  The hole plays +/- 440 yards and there is very little fairway between 210 - 250 yards from the tee.  The seems like a mighty carry for nearly everybody, however being forced to lay back that far doesn't seem all that thrilling an option.  What am I missing?

TK

[Eric Smith]

White 2

Are those cattle in the distance and, if so, how are they kept off the course - is there is hidden valley/fence keeping them away?

Is the green in the background (on the left in the photo) being hand-mown?

I love this landscape. Seems like you could put a million holes out there and still have room for more.

atb

Hi, Thomas. Thanks for chiming in.

Yes, those are cattle. The immediate 3,000 acres surrounding the golf courses are home to quite a few of them, with fencing along the boundaries.

That green you are asking about is the 3rd green, though I do not know which type of mowers are used to mow it. There is a path along the rear of the green, so a riding mower does have the ability to access it.

[Eric Smith]

7
Portrait in Sepia

I will judge the 7th holes based solely on these photos taken during the single elimination playoffs at the last couple of 5th Majors.

7 White
437 Par 4
2012 5th Major Playoff

Eric,

One of the things I enjoy about the white course is the options available around the greens.  In the above photo, I had no desire to flirt with the false front/steep approach and risk a big number and get knocked out, so I opted to use the big slope left of the green and filter my chip back to around 15 feet to guarantee at worst a 5.

TK

Tyler,

How close you were to earning your first major! Glad you'll be back to try again next year.

The 7th hole white Red looked very narrow in the landing area when Doak led us around in the dirt a few years ago, and checking on google today it still appears that way.  The hole plays +/- 440 yards and there is very little fairway between 210 - 250 yards from the tee.  The seems like a mighty carry for nearly everybody, however being forced to lay back that far doesn't seem all that thrilling an option.  What am I missing?

TK

It is definitely tough from back there. I think most play from the 388 marker; I know I do. From there it is a much more manageable carry over the dune.

[Jim Tang]

I'm enjoying the tour very much.  I'm wondering if the tall grass comes into play much on either course?  Or, to get in that stuff, do you need to hit a shot really way off line?

[Eric Smith]

White 8
265 / 333 Par 4



The shot I look forward to the most when traveling to Dismal is the tee shot at the 8th hole of the Nicklaus course. It’s a reachable par 4, typically playing around 250-260 yards from the member tees. There is also a back tee that stretches the hole to 333 yards.

Wind is always a factor in the decision to go for it. The direct line to the green is all carry over the native and a finger of the deep, heinous bunker.There is a patch of fairway just before the green. Unless there's an unfavorable wind, say 10-15 mph, I’m more likely to take a crack at going for the green. Besides the direct route, there is another option to get there, but it requires much faith in the execution! You can try to bank it off of the big dune on the right. Taking on that dune can be dicey, but if you keep it on the inside of it, more often than not it will kick the ball down onto the putting surface. One of the great satisfactions during a visit to Dismal is watching a tee shot disappear over the dune…tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock…then seeing it reappear into the field of view, moving across the green and settling near the hole for an upcoming eagle attempt.

Looking back at 8 from 9 tee


---

Red 8
554 / 512 Par 5



Red 8 is a very natural hole, laid out over some gently rolling terrain; just wonderful ground for golf. The hole begins on top of a dune, playing down across a field toward the entrance road.

 Before and after photos:



The elevated tee and wide fairway provide a boost of confidence when standing over the ball.



Lots of room to play safe, away from the hazard.



It seems most consider it the bee’s knees and I can’t think of a thing I don’t like about it. It is a toss up between it and #10 as to which par 5 I like better on the Red.

But White gets the nod as it is in my top 5 or 6 holes at the club.

The match is all square heading to the 9th.

[Peter Pallotta]

I give the 8th to the White, as it seems to do what IT intends to do (as a drivable 4) a tad better than what Red intends to do (as a mid-length Par 5). 

So, after 8 holes, PJP scores the match: All Square!  (A different all square, arrived at much differently, than Eric's for example, but I guess that's the pros/cons of match play).

[Bruce Wellmon]

The first couple of times I played White 8 in the 5th Major, I played it the traditional way. Hybrid. Left off the tee. Short iron in.
One time that weekend, downwind I went for it and made it. When I went home, I Google Earth'd it and am convinced that based on the wind driver is the only play. The angle of the green is far superior in going for it. It is a great drivable par 4.
In this ballot, that doesn't matter 
White wins.
White +1.

[Mac Plumart]

White 8 is another memorable hole at Dismal.  So much fun!

Red 8 is another classically good golf hole.  Great speed slots, fairway contours, and a great green site.  Excellent hole with an amazing back drop.

My choice for this match play contest is White.  Iconic hole at Dismal...super fun!!

White +2 on the MRP scorecard.


For me, White is up, so far, because of pure fun and uniqueness of the holes.  HOWEVER, Tom is about to take his course over the road and into some of the best golf holes I've ever played. 

[Bruce Wellmon]

6 Red tee shot.

7 Red green from 5. 6 green in the distance.

8 Red tee shot.

[Cliff Walston]

Catching up a bit...

White draws even with Red on my card, winning both 7 & 8.  I think R7 is a good hole, although I prefer the challenge presented by W7.  A difficult dogleg left around a fierce bunker to a green benched into a dune, it is a par 4.5 for me, where I walk away with 6 more times that I care to admit by refusing to admit it my be a foolish mistake trying to make 4.  I like the tee shot on R7 challenging the bunker on the right, but its the second shot into W7 that carries it for me.  

As to the 8th, I think W8 is a really cool risk reward par 4 from the middle tees.  R8 is probably my least favorite of the three par 5s on the course, although I can't articulate why.  It just seems to be missing something to me.  But it is a solid hole that serves its purpose of getting you from the upper portion of the course back down to begin the all world final 10 holes.

I think a better comparison would have been R9 v. W8 and W8 v. R9, but that is not the task at hand.  For now, its all square, although I expect Red is about to run away with it...

A reminder that the sandhills is a wild place, W8 tee was the scene of this photo taken last year.  Yes that is a rabbit in the snake's mouth.  Beware of Eddie NoShoulders when tromping around the wugga.

[Keith OHalloran]

Cliff,
You saw a snake mid meal and thought that going to pick it up would be a good idea?

[Jim Colton]

White 8 is another memorable hole at Dismal.  So much fun!

Red 8 is another classically good golf hole.  Great speed slots, fairway contours, and a great green site.  Excellent hole with an amazing back drop.

My choice for this match play contest is White.  Iconic hole at Dismal...super fun!!

White +2 on the MRP scorecard.


For me, White is up, so far, because of pure fun and uniqueness of the holes.  HOWEVER, Tom is about to take his course over the road and into some of the best golf holes I've ever played. 

Mac,

 You've used "iconic" to describe the 4th and 8th holes. I can understand the 4th hole, as the windmill makes it definitely unique and easily identifiable. I don't know much about the 8th hole and haven't seen many pictures of it. What are the defining characteristics that make it iconic in your mind?

  When I think of iconic, I think of holes that would either be a) immediately identifiable if you plunked an average GCAer or even average joe golfer on the tee box (16th at Cypress, 7th at Pebble, 17th at Sawgrass, Road Hole, etc) and/or b) the hole universally identified with a well-known course (say something like the 18th at Harbourtown). Does your definition fit this, or how does it differ?

  This is probably jumping ahead, but is there a hole on the Red that you think will evolve to "iconic" status? I have a hard time with it because there are so many strong holes. The 18th perhaps? I'm partial to the 14th but that may not be universally cherished enough to meet iconic status.

[Eric Smith]

Jim,

 I think 18 will settle in as the iconic hole of the Red, particularly with the orientation of the clubhouse and cabins overlooking it. The cedars and rumple look good together as well. See Cliff's pic: