Question for you "ground game" experts...

[Mike_Young]

I have to admit the more I hear of the "ground game" on this site, the more I am confused.  IMHO for a scratch player or let's say a professional golfer there is no such thing as a ground game as it relates to approach shots UNLESS the green will not hold his shot or he needs to roll onto a par five in two shots.  The tee shot is a different subject.  So...is there a reason for a good player to use the ground game when the air game works?  Now I understand that some on here may have fun hitting shots and watching how the intricacies of firm undulating ground approaches maneuver the ball but that has nothing to do with playing the game for a score...if an older golfer needs to use the ground the so be it and it becomes an enjoyable aspect of playing the game as one gets older but IMHO I cannot see where it is a legitimate way to play competitive golf for the good players with today's equipment.  Yes, it was a factor at one time.  Am I missing something? 

[Greg Chambers]

Mike,

At the course I used to play very frequently, we had a relatively long par 3...approximately 200+ yards, depending on the setup.  The green was too small for a shot of this length, plus it had a center bunker with a downslope that extended onto the green surface.  A front left pin could be accessed by hitting a tee shot into the approach just short of the green.  The only way to get to a front middle or front right pin was to hit a shot short and right and allow the slope to kill the shot and hopefully propel it toward the hole.  Even the really good players knew that if they attacked the front hole location by air, the shot would end up deep or over.  The only way to get to those hole locations was to use the ground game.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

When I worked for Pete Dye I was always talking about the ground game as I'd seen it in Scotland, and about leaving the greens open in front.

A couple of years after I'd left, Pete calls me.  He said he'd gone out to watch Jack Nicklaus play with the Ohio State golf team at Old Marsh, which was brand new.  With that lead, I'll paraphrase as best I can remember:

"Now, you know, Tommy, half the greens at Old Marsh are open in front, no bunkers, and the back of the green is level with the front, so there is no advantage to hitting an aerial approach.  But Jack is hitting these howitzers up into the air for his approach shots.  On #10, I ask him, 'Jack, did you ever think of hitting a lower shot in there and letting the ball run up to the hole,' and he looks at me and says, 'Why would I want to do that?'"



If you can hit the ball like Jack Nicklaus could, there is no reason to play the ground game, although I occasionally have fun trying to build a hole where he would be better off trying.

But most people can't hit the ball like Jack could.

[Joe Hancock]

You're not missing a thing. It just so happens that competition golfers, as you are intending, are a very small percentage of those who enjoy the game of golf. So, let the ground bring a smile to the face of the masses, if they so choose.

Joe

[Jaeger Kovich]

Mike,

A few years ago, caddied for a notre dame golf alum at Winged Foot's Anderson who was putting from 50 yards out a few times a round. Other than that, I have 1 friend/colleague, and then just an old regular loop at a private club with an older/overweight member that would do that regularly.

I think in reality, "the ground game" is a recovery shot option for quality player, and a recovery shot staple of the lesser.

[Steve Lang]

   By jove I think you've got it!

There's golf and then there's tournament golf…

I suspect most mere mortals play more of a "bound" game… bound to go here or there..

[Mike_Young]

Tom and Joe,
you guys  are saying what I am saying.   When it comes to competitive golf and the lowest scores need to be shot by the best players the ground game is not much of a factor.  For the rest of us it can be an option....but we should not be disappointed or expect to see the ground game at the weeklly PGA tour stop.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - the only thing I'd say is that competition comes in many forms. I'm an average golfer at best, but I like to keep score and I like to compete with friends when I get a chance. Now, I can hit some good shots every once in a while, and have no trouble (relatively speaking) playing an aerial game. But besides not being all that talented, I also don't practice, and so those shots from 60-70 yards in, those half wedges, those pitches that need to bounce and stop, all those kind of finesse aerial shots, I'm not very good at; and I've found time and again that, aiming to shoot the best score I can means that I need to use the ground game -- a six or seven iron from 60 yards out that I bump in real low and watch run up and on, for example. It is a kind of shot that for some reason I find easier than its aerial equivalent, even for a hack like me who doesn't practice. I don't have to use it, but I've halved or won many a hole because I played it while my opponent thinned a sand wedge or hit a pitch shot fat or had a 60 degree shot get blown around by the wind. There's still a place in golf, for average golfers who want to compete, to use the ground game.

Peter

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I agree .  Let me rephrase or clarify that I am speaking of full approach shots into greens...I think there are plenty of tour guys that play the same shot you mention.  Actually I think we would be surprised how often the tour player is pitching a short shot with a 9 iron or wedge when we actually think he has sand wedge in his hand...

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - no, you were clear even in your first post, and then even more so in your follow-up, which i read before deciding to hit the post button on mine anyway. I just wanted to get my two cents in, on behalf of competitive hacks everywhere! 

[BCowan]

Using Jack as the barometer isn't a fair assessment.  Jack hit a high fade.  If Ben Hogan would of played in 12 British Opens he'd of probably have won 7 of them.  Gary Player won 9 Majors and I'd bet he used the ground often in majors.  Mike, I'd say week in and week out the PGA tour sets the greens up to be softer so they can increase the green speeds (my guess).  How many greens in the US are built back to front vs front to back?  I was upset to watch last years Open and see Phil's 6 iron at 18 release 4 feet from 200 yards with no rain in the week.  I much preferred the Watson shot at 18 in regulation prior to his loss to Cink that landed 20-30 yards short in regulation and still went over (i know it was downwind).  It comes down to course set up (faster greens over hard/firm) and perceived expectations in arch IMHO. 

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I do think it is interesting how often the very good players back off of clubs even with the air game.  I often get to play with a couple of Senior tour guys that play at our place each week they are in town and I am surprised how often these guys hit half shots etc...one of us slap dick D players is out there thinking  its cool to hit a 50 yard 9 iron and they have a 6 iron in their hand..

[Mike_Young]

Using Jack as the barometer isn't a fair assessment.  Jack hit a high fade.  If Ben Hogan would of played in 12 British Opens he'd of probably have won 7 of them.  Gary Player won 9 Majors and I'd bet he used the ground often in majors.  Mike, I'd say week in and week out the PGA tour sets the greens up to be softer so they can increase the green speeds (my guess).  How many greens in the US are built back to front vs front to back?  I was upset to watch last years Open and see Phil's 6 iron at 18 release 4 feet from 200 yards with no rain in the week.  I much preferred the Watson shot at 18 in regulation prior to his loss to Cink that landed 20-30 yards short in regulation and still went over (i know it was downwind).  It comes down to course set up (faster greens over hard/firm) and perceived expectations in arch IMHO. 

Ben,
your are saying the same thing I'm saying....I aid UNLESS the greens would not hold.  But you bring up something that I think is one of the few ways left to mess with he pros.  tom mentions it also in his "Dye/Nicklaus" post.  Greens that are level from fron to back or fall away require much more thought than back to front sloping greens and they often make the fairway more of a premium for good players.

[BCowan]

Mike,

    Those senior tour pro's seem to hit more half shots, I don't see PGA pro's of this generation doing as much as generations past IMHO.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, how much have you played on the links courses of the UK, where ground game shots are required, even in the British Open?

The US PGA players play on courses where the greens are set up to accommodate their aerial approaches.   Look what happened to those poor bastards at Doral last week.  "Oh god Butch, what do I do now?"

[Sam Morrow]

Mike,

    Those senior tour pro's seem to hit more half shots, I don't see PGA pro's of this generation doing as much as generations past IMHO.

The half shot is rare to see from an American player anymore. Every 2 years when Europe kicks our ass in the Ryder Cup it seems like they are hitting half shots and manufacturing shots unlike our guys.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, how much have you played on the links courses of the UK, where ground game shots are required, even in the British Open?
Have played them probably an average of one week every couple of years  for the last 25 years etc..but I understand that..read my post..it says "UNLESS the greens do not accept a shot"

The US PGA players play on courses where the greens are set up to accommodate their aerial approaches.   Look what happened to those poor bastards at Doral last week.  the one day was exceptional wind but the main thing was new USGA sand greens with no organic buildup... "Oh god Butch, what do I do now?"

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

    Those senior tour pro's seem to hit more half shots, I don't see PGA pro's of this generation doing as much as generations past IMHO.

The half shot is rare to see from an American player anymore. Every 2 years when Europe kicks our ass in the Ryder Cup it seems like they are hitting half shots and manufacturing shots unlike our guys.

I do think many of the PGA tour players hit pitching wedge from inside 100 yards more than we think...

[Sam Morrow]

Mike,

    Those senior tour pro's seem to hit more half shots, I don't see PGA pro's of this generation doing as much as generations past IMHO.

The half shot is rare to see from an American player anymore. Every 2 years when Europe kicks our ass in the Ryder Cup it seems like they are hitting half shots and manufacturing shots unlike our guys.

I do think many of the PGA tour players hit pitching wedge from inside 100 yards more than we think...

What about from 150 yards and taking something off of one?

[jeffwarne]

Using Jack as the barometer isn't a fair assessment.  Jack hit a high fade.  If Ben Hogan would of played in 12 British Opens he'd of probably have won 7 of them.  Gary Player won 9 Majors and I'd bet he used the ground often in majors.  Mike, I'd say week in and week out the PGA tour sets the greens up to be softer so they can increase the green speeds (my guess).  How many greens in the US are built back to front vs front to back?  I was upset to watch last years Open and see Phil's 6 iron at 18 release 4 feet from 200 yards with no rain in the week.  I much preferred the Watson shot at 18 in regulation prior to his loss to Cink that landed 20-30 yards short in regulation and still went over (i know it was downwind).  It comes down to course set up (faster greens over hard/firm) and perceived expectations in arch IMHO.  

Ben,
your are saying the same thing I'm saying....I aid UNLESS the greens would not hold.  But you bring up something that I think is one of the few ways left to mess with he pros.  tom mentions it also in his "Dye/Nicklaus" post.  Greens that are level from fron to back or fall away require much more thought than back to front sloping greens and they often make the fairway more of a premium for good players.

Mike,
come join us at The Goat.
Loads of tilt, and firm surrounds will make players rethink flying the ball to the green.
Fly it pin high one yard left and watch it go 30 yards over the green.


As you say, the one way left to mess with better players is greens AND surrounds sloping away, and THAT and TILT are why I've been on my one man rant about slowing down greens so that the amount of tilt can be greater, which in turn increases the amount/effect of the first bounce, yet isn't so much faster than the approach area that a well judged shot never stops once it begins properly rolling.

Mini repeat rant...again
Always amazes me how people can be completely unaware that a green stimping at 6 can produce LIGHTNING fast putts, with huge amount of curve, because a green designed to be run at 6 can support an approach testing amount of tilt.

I don't think any of this would mess with the pros for long. They'd figure it out if they had to.
they play the game they're presented with, and see no point in adjusting for a day or two, because they'll just have to adjust back.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have to admit the more I hear of the "ground game" on this site, the more I am confused.  IMHO for a scratch player or let's say a professional golfer there is no such thing as a ground game as it relates to approach shots UNLESS the green will not hold his shot or he needs to roll onto a par five in two shots.  The tee shot is a different subject.  So...is there a reason for a good player to use the ground game when the air game works?  Now I understand that some on here may have fun hitting shots and watching how the intricacies of firm undulating ground approaches maneuver the ball but that has nothing to do with playing the game for a score...if an older golfer needs to use the ground the so be it and it becomes an enjoyable aspect of playing the game as one gets older but IMHO I cannot see where it is a legitimate way to play competitive golf for the good players with today's equipment.  Yes, it was a factor at one time.  Am I missing something? 

NO

[Mike_Young]

[

I don't think any of this would mess with the pros for long. They'd figure it out if they had to.
they play the game they're presented with, and see no point in adjusting for a day or two, because they'll just have to adjust back.

That's why they just don't play courses they don't fit.....that's why they did not adjust at Doral...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I recall playing with Gary Player in a pro am.  His comment to me was that in the short game, you are better off keeping the ball as low to the ground as you can.  Putting better than mid iron, mid iron better than wedge.  Many other pros have said the same thing.  Less chance of a slight skull, more control of contours if you land just on the green and roll it out, etc.  Of course, that was from no more than 60 yards out, probably less.

JN once told me he hit lower spin shots on long par 4's, downwind and he liked double deck greens there so it could roll up the slope a bit.  So, at least he considers more or less spin sometimes, but not the ground game to a large degree.

So there is a bit of room for the ground game. But the roll out is sure much less than it might have been a century ago.

[mike_beene]

When I first went to Scotland I assumed that there would be very few high shots hit. I was surprised that ,except for a few very windy days, that the short game was still more consistent in the air. Specifically, it is much easier to judge a 40 yard wedge than to hit a 40 yard runner. With the links now having sprinklers and the courses at home getting firmer and faster, the game is very similar at home and in links land. Putting from more than a few yards off the green is a crap shoot to me.

[Jim Nugent]

Every 2 years when Europe kicks our ass in the Ryder Cup it seems like they are hitting half shots and manufacturing shots unlike our guys.

If so, why have U.S. players won 12 British Opens since 1990, while Euro players have won just 6? 

The Europeans must really play those shots better than the rest of the world, since the U.S. usually kicks its ass at the Presidents Cup.

Question: how often on links courses do pro's play ground-game shots into the greens?