Kingsley #2 (Scoring AVG be for the Pros?) Best Sub 162 yard hole in US?

[Mike Hendren]

I'd say 2.75 tops.  Heck, my average is 3.5.

Proving once again we collectively have zero idea exactly how great these players are.  Our respective experiences are irrelevant.  The professionals are so much better with the flat stick and can get up and down from everywhere.   Check that - everywhere.

No need to pump up Kingsley's rep by assigning a higher number.  I'll stipulate it's a very good golf course. 

Bogey.

[BCowan]

Mr Bogey,

    I disagree, the difference to me is night and day.  Kinglsey is maintained firm.  The pro's play on soft/fast greens.  I've caddied for these guys, I'm aware. 

[Mike Hendren]

Just a few facts:

The 7th at Pebble Beach Golf Links has been played over 7,000 times during the PGA tour stop there.  Average score is 2.987.

During a round of the 2004 Open Championship at Troon 156 players averaged 2.99 at the Postage Stamp.

During the 2013 PGA tour the average score on par threes ranging from 125 to 150 yards was 2.91.

During the 2013 Players Championship the average score at Sawgrass' 17th was 3.06.

fwiw

[Mike Hendren]

I am a total hack and am debating whether I would take a bet that I could play it 10 times without making a triple since Ben believes the professionals would frequently make 5 or 6.   I name Barney as my surrogate for this bet, hopefully to be carried out this summer.  The only caveat is that I lay off half the wager to him.  Thought about my buddy Kirk but that would be too easy.

Bogey

btw it is a very good golf hole, just not quite as high on the pucker factor as the apologists would like for the masses to believe.

[BCowan]

Mr Bogey,

   I said that the hole would be at 3.0 for the pros and I'm sticking with it.  Frequent 5's and 6's I'd amend that to a few 5's and 6's which would give that 3.0 average.  I'll get me surrogate and we can make this happen.  Please name hole(s) you feel are superior and why?  10 plays without making a 5 or higher.  I also get to pick pin location. 

[Mike Hendren]

Dadgummit Ben I was just relaxing on a rare slow morning at the office - now you're calling me out.  Don't you recognize a hit-n-run when you see it?  I assume you want 10 superior holes no longer than 160 yards.  I'd start with two 7ths - one at Palmetto and the other at Pebble Beach.  I assume Raynor's short with thumbprint can only be cited once?   Let's make it interesting:  how about limiting the superior holes to those designed by  Donald J. Ross?   New thread coming.

Bogey

[BCowan]

Mr Bogey,

   I just want to first say how nice it was to meet you at Lookout Mtn a few years ago.  I'm looking forward to learning from your thread...   

[Steve Lapper]

I like Kingsley very much and think it's a terrific place, but will challenge your (rather provincial) statement/question about Best Sub 160 yard hole in US.


Let's start with the truly great ones:


#11 Shinnecock
#9 Myopia Hunt Club
#12 Augusta National
#10 Pine Valley GC
#15 Cypress Point
#17 Sand Hills




Now just merely terrific ones:


#14 Engineers
#11 Plainfield
#4 Country Club of Fairfield
#15 LACC North
#12 Somerset Hills


It could go on with at least another 10 that are equal to or superior to #2 at Kingsley. This wan't a difficult exercise.


Kingsley has a very nice balance and wonderful movement. As I said, I like it very much, but not a single hole there stands out as a Top 10 or 20 in the US. Just keeping it real!

[BCowan]

I like Kingsley very much and think it's a terrific place, but will challenge your (rather provincial) statement/question about Best Sub 160 yard hole in US.


Let's start with the truly great ones:


#11 Shinnecock
#9 Myopia Hunt Club
#12 Augusta National
#10 Pine Valley GC
#15 Cypress Point
#17 Sand Hills




Now just merely terrific ones:


#14 Engineers
#11 Plainfield
#4 Country Club of Fairfield
#15 LACC North
#12 Somerset Hills


It could go on with at least another 10 that are equal to or superior to #2 at Kingsley. This wan't a difficult exercise.


Kingsley has a very nice balance and wonderful movement. As I said, I like it very much, but not a single hole there stands out as a Top 10 or 20 in the US. Just keeping it real!

The 12th at Augusta, really.  A hole that requires a heater under it and or lights in the winter to grow grass because God forbid they cut down trees behind the green and ruin the backdrop for the average viewer.  It's so hit and hope.  I actually like your 2nd list.   

''rather provincial''- Wow, I'm not worthy. 

[Steve Lapper]

Those "trees" you mention separate two golf courses. I'd call that functional first and aesthetic second. Have you played that hole? It's devilish and plays tough all season long.....not just the first week in April.


 I don't know if you are "worthy, or not, and wasn't even thinking about that, but when you make a hyperbolic statement/question without examining the context of what else exists elsewhere, "provincial" is the most benign word anyone might use. Like I said, KGC is a wonderful course, club and very fun to play, however, it just doesn't have a single hole that stands out inside the top 10 or 20 of it's brethren in the US.

[BCowan]

Steve,

I never said the hole didn't play difficult, I'm implying that the original green dimension i prefer for it had more strategic options.   Why is separating golf courses a good use of function when you don't have light to grow grass?   I can think of another word to describe it. 

Like I said, KGC is a wonderful course, club and very fun to play, however, it just doesn't have a single hole that stands out inside the top 10 or 20 of it's brethren in the US.

I haven't played nearly as many top clubs as you but I'd rather you explain why the ones above you listed are better.   The simple notion that others and myself have mentioned that they think about the hole before they come to the tee box is a great compliment IMO.  Also i give big points to holes that accomplish this WITHOUT WATER!  Again I don't have KGC high on my list as a course as others do, but the 2nd hole is great IMO. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Ben:

How did they grow grass at the 12th for the 60 or so years prior to the heaters being installed?

Just a question.

Sven

[Jason Way]

I love the 2nd at Kingsley, but I don't think that it would give much trouble to PGA Tour pros.  Those guys are capable of hitting a little once-bounce-and-check knock down, which works on that hole every time regardless of the conditions.  Once on the green, putts are makable after a relatively short study of the subtle contours. 

By contrast, the 14th at Crystal Downs is both a challenge to hit, and absolutely impossible to putt if you are on the green in the wrong place, especially later in the season when the course is dried out and running fast.

I love both holes, but if you are judging "best" based on difficulty, I don't think that the 2nd at Kingsley is even the best short par-3 in N. MI.