[Jimmy Chandler]

From "Trump National Doral’s Monster: The New Blue has an Old Soul" by Joe Passov
http://scorecard.golf.com/2014/03/07/trump-national-dorals-monster-the-new-blue-has-an-old-soul/?sct=hp5

Doral continues to embody the post-World War II emphasis on the aerial game. The priority is still to flight the ball properly in the wind and to carry one hazard after the next. Joe Lee, who co-designed the Blue Monster with Dick Wilson in 1961, once stated, “Golf is an air game. If you want to roll the ball, you should sign up for the bowling team.”

Obviously most members of this discussion group would disagree with Lee's philosophy. That said,

- Do you think the new Doral design by Hanse executes "Golf is an air game" successfully?
- Do you think Lee's philosophy that "golf is an air game" is ever a legitimate approach to golf course design?
- Other than Pete Dye, who else has designed a great golf course with the "air game" approach?

[Matthew Petersen]

George Crump certainly comes to mind

[jeffwarne]

They don't call that era the Dark ages for no reason

[Anthony_Nysse]

Dick Wilson, who taught Joe Lee

[Jason Thurman]

- Do you think the new Doral design by Hanse executes "Golf is an air game" successfully?

It's too early to say.

- Do you think Lee's philosophy that "golf is an air game" is ever a legitimate approach to golf course design?

Of course. In fact, I don't think his philosophy is all that divergent from the Golden Age guys. The art of feature and hazard placement is mostly a question of making players think about whether they will go over, under, or around something. Let's be honest, golf IS an air game. It's just enhanced a bit when the ball also bounces and moves some after it lands.

- Other than Pete Dye, who else has designed a great golf course with the "air game" approach?

As above, a lot of the most strategic courses I've played are a blast to play an aerial game on. There's nothing more fun than trying to fly the ball over a hazard, particularly when you make it. In that regard, Lawsonia is a wonderful aerial course with its push-up greens that send misses bounding away and hazards in driving zones and along the ideal playing lines that are really satisfying to fly the ball over. Our own Tim Liddy's Trophy Club north of Indianapolis is a ton of fun to fly a ball around. Augusta appears to be a wonderful aerial course, and would've been even in its original form with the backdrop of pines and hills to watch the ball fly against and the swashbuckling carries at holes like 13 and 15.

I guess I don't think Joe Lee said anything nearly as crazy as the original post makes it sound. Let's not get carried away with the ground game. Landing a ball and bouncing it to a target is a fun way to play the game, but rolling a ball around a course really is a tactic that should be reserved for bowling.

[Mike_Young]

Golf is an air game...and at times a ground game.  When ever I hear some guy talking about nothing but the gorund game it usually menas he cant play UNLESS he is an older guy.  The pros can play the ground when it is called for.  But when I see some guy trying to show me how cool it is to roll the ball in form 100 yard out just because he can't hit the proper shot I have to call BS. 

[David_Tepper]

To (loosely) quote Jack Nicklaus, "there are no bad bounces in the air."  

[Sam Morrow]

Was Lee referring to Doral or a particular course when he said this?

[Thomas Dai]

To (loosely) quote Jack Nicklaus, "there are no bad bounces in the air."  

I remember watchingTom Kite on TV hitting a shot over a lake to a par-3 green and the ball hitting a bird in mid-flight and dropping into the lake. I wonder if Tom afterwards agreed with JN's comment that "there are no bad bounces in the air"!

atb

[Jimmy Chandler]

Was Lee referring to Doral or a particular course when he said this?

Sam --

it's not clear form the article, so I would guess it was not a direct statement about Doral. If it was the author should have stated such.

[Steven Blake]

Basketball is an "air" game the basket is up in the air.  In golf the hole is in the ground making it a ground game! 


Steve Blake

[Frank Giordano]

Bob von Hagge, a colleague of Joe Lee and associate of Dick Wilson at Doral, also emphasized very heavily the aerial game.  Several of his courses used water and sand bunkers to front, even completely surround the greens, creating virtual islands which could only be approached through the air.  His long-time partner Bruce Devlin told me about the constant tension between the two over permitting players to run their balls onto greens and use the ground game whenever the winds were so strong that aerial approaches were too perilous.  Bruce grew up playing windy Australian linksland courses, so his advocacy of the ground options was natural to him.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

“There is no similarity between golf and putting; they are two different games- one played in the air, and the other on the ground.” Ben Hogan

[Carl Johnson]

Golf is an air game...and at times a ground game.  When ever I hear some guy talking about nothing but the gorund game it usually menas he cant play UNLESS he is an older guy.  The pros can play the ground when it is called for.  But when I see some guy trying to show me how cool it is to roll the ball in form 100 yard out just because he can't hit the proper shot I have to call BS.  

Mike, I'm an old guy.  That means many things.  But just to be the devil's advocate: "how cool it is to roll the ball in form 100 yard out just because he can't hit the proper shot I have to call BS."  Who defines the proper shot?  Is it you?  Who?  I've looked at the USGA rule book and I do not see anything about the "proper shot."  (I have not looked at at the R & A Rule book, I will admit that.  Maybe you get style points there.)  I have to call BS on you!    P.S., I guess it's like the long anchored putter not "proper" and negative style points.

[Craig Disher]

Doral continues to embody the post-World War II emphasis on the aerial game. The priority is still to flight the ball properly in the wind and to carry one hazard after the next. Joe Lee, who co-designed the Blue Monster with Dick Wilson in 1961, once stated, “Golf is an air game. If you want to roll the ball, you should sign up for the bowling team.”

Did Joe Lee really say this? It's pretty lame, just like "Golf is a ground game. If you want to play through the air, take up darts." It's not surprising to me that support for the air game predominates here in the US where most courses are kept so wet that a ground game - not rolling the ball along the ground but bouncing it into and along slopes - just isn't a good option.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The "ground" game is a romantic myth in the U.S.

A figment of moronic GCA.com nerd's imaginations.

What course is best played in the U.S. by landing your ball 25-50 yards short of the green ?

As early as 1907 emphasis was being placed on the aerial game in the U.S.with Macdonald's creation if NGLA

[Sven Nilsen]

Doesn't this all depend on the ground itself?

Can you have a ground game course in an area that won't allow you to grow grass to complement it?

Can you have an aerial game course on ground that is rock hard and runs?

Didn't we just see what happens on a course that is designed for the aerial game when the greens aren't just yet at the level of receptiveness needed?

[Carl Johnson]

The old saw: "Drive for show, putt for dough."  Is putting an air game or a ground game?  Just askin'.

[Joe Hancock]

What course is best played in the U.S. by landing your ball 25-50 yards short of the green ?

I'll ask my Dad, who, when he gets the chance to play, does this with great regularity. Or, does his style of play not count?

Joe

[Bryan Icenhower]

What percentage of the game is played in the air vs on the ground? Take a par 5, guessing my ball ia in the air ~ 90% of the time. Do we really know the intent of Mr. Lee's quote.

[jeffwarne]

The "ground" game is a romantic myth in the U.S.

A figment of moronic GCA.com nerd's imaginations.

What course is best played in the U.S. by landing your ball 25-50 yards short of the green ?

As early as 1907 emphasis was being placed on the aerial game in the U.S.with Macdonald's creation if NGLA

There's a pretty good ezample of one quite near NGLA being discussed on another thread.
Fortunately it's not been changed (or fertilized ) since 1897

[Carl Johnson]

What percentage of the game is played in the air vs on the ground? Take a par 5, guessing my ball ia in the air ~ 90% of the time. Do we really know the intent of Mr. Lee's quote.

Bryan, are we taking putts into account here?  Or, shots with a putter, but from off the green?  90%?

[Jason Thurman]

What percentage of the game is played in the air vs on the ground? Take a par 5, guessing my ball ia in the air ~ 90% of the time. Do we really know the intent of Mr. Lee's quote.

Bryan, are we taking putts into account here?  Or, shots with a putter, but from off the green?  90%?

I don't think Joe Lee ever built a green that required putts to go through the air. The quote is obviously in regard to tee-to-green design.

[Mark Saltzman]

What course is best played in the U.S. by landing your ball 25-50 yards short of the green ?

Newport

[Bryan Icenhower]

What percentage of the game is played in the air vs on the ground? Take a par 5, guessing my ball ia in the air ~ 90% of the time. Do we really know the intent of Mr. Lee's quote.

Bryan, are we taking putts into account here?  Or, shots with a putter, but from off the green?  90%?

Lets say its a 550 yard hole. I putt for 30 feet or 10 yards. That still give me 45 yards of roll strictly across the ground (so not including bounces), which typically doesn't happen where I play.  Even if it was on the ground for 130 yards - that means its in the air for 75% of the time. I call that a majority. 

Even if we call it an air game, doesn't mean I can't bounce it into a green or play the ground game.  Still in the air the vast majoritoy of the time.

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