Saltville GC, Virginia - Who did it?

[Sven Nilsen]

I randomly stumbled across an old photo of Saltville Golf Club in Virginia, and was struck by the bold features depicted in the photo.



Digging around a bit, I found that Saltville was built in the mid-20's when the town was a base for the Mathieson Alkali Company (l/k/a Olin Mathieson).  In fact, the architect for the course is listed as Olin Matheson on several websites.

There isn't a ton of information out there about the course, but it is still in existence.  It looks like most of the bunkering has been filled in, but I'd venture the course hasn't really been reworked since it was built.  I tracked down two more old photos and a more recent color shot showing most of the course.  I wouldn't have thought too much about it until I noticed a green on the map image of the location, that being the one located in the northeast corner of the course in this link:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Saltville,+VA/@36.8765406,-81.7612148,183m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x8850248e7d710e89:0xb1138a9395d4d966

Look familiar?

[Nigel Islam]

That has the look of a MacRaynor hole.

[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:

Take a look at the map and tell me that's not a Redan.

Sven

[Nigel Islam]

That pot bunker on the one hole looks like it was done by one of our beloved ODGs. The hole in first pic seems to be bunkerless now. What a shame.

[Rees Milikin]

Very cool find, and I agree with you that the hole looks like a Redan.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Yes, but the routing is straight as a plank holes back and forth. I don't think Macraynor would route a course that way and if it were more imaginatively routed at an earlier time I can't imagine anyone would reroute it to what is there today. Where are the other template holes?

But I admit that the bunkering on the 1943 photo is evocative.

[Bart Bradley]

I live about 30 minutes from Saltville.  I'll see if I can't drive up there sometime and take a look around.

Bart

[A.G._Crockett]

I grew up about 45 minutes away and know the area pretty well.  Let's stipulate that we're talking about Appalachia in the 1920's and work from there.

I'd be shocked to find out that anything much different happened in Saltville than from a zillion other small Southern towns; some local guys laid out a golf course in pasture land on the outskirts of town.  Popup greens, minimal bunkering, etc. 

If you find a name attached to the course, I'll be the first to say I was wrong, but I can't imagine those good folks hiring a GCA to come in and "design" a golf course in those days.

[Adam_Messix]

A similar scenario to this happened at Plymouth Country Club in North Carolina with Flynn and Kiechefer Pulp.

Not saying that is what happened, but having a name guy showing up would not be as far fetched as you might think.

[Matt Wharton]

I played one 18 hole round (9 hole course) there once in my life. The year was 1986 and I was a senior in high-school (Castlewood).  There was an announcement one morning over the PA system anyone interested in participating in the District Championship Tournament (the old Hogoheegee District) needed to see one of the PE teachers.  Only three people showed up (me, my first cousin, and the principal's daughter).  Being only three of us we were ineligible for the team portion of the competition (as you had to have four scores) but we were able to compete as individuals.

The only thing I distinctly remember about the course was the two opening holes were back-to-back par 5's that were parallel to each other.  You played straight away from the clubhouse on the first hole, then turned around and played straight back towards the clubhouse on the second (with the first hole on your left).  I believe the remaining 7 holes then worked around the property boundary in a counter-clockwise flow.

I was paired with two boys from Chilhowie and they had a friend who did not play but had a car and he followed the group along the roads parallel to the course boundary.  The boys from Chilhowie kept running over to their friends car to drink beer.  Ahhh, the memories!! 

[Lawrence Largent]

I've never played the course and live fairly close.  I have a friend who grew up playing there and the joke was " it's the only course where you can drive all of the par 4's and you can't reach any of the par 3's".  Most of the greens are square or rectangular in shape.  I'll have to give him a call and ask about it.


Lawrence

[Wade Whitehead]

Washington County native here (pleasantly surprised to see other people from the area).  Never played Saltville, but know a longtime "member" there (which can simply mean someone who plays every Saturday).

I would be shocked if any designer, other than the landowner(s), laid out the place.  At one time there were a number of nine-hole courses scattered throughout southwest Virginia and northeast Tennessee, all of which were back-and-forth, short, fun layouts.  Sadly, lots of them have closed (including Holston Valley (which fluctuated between nine and eighteen holes, depending on the annual mood of the farmer who owned six or seven of the holes) and East Hill, which sat on the campus of King College.  None of them had any pedigree but they all represent 98% of the golf courses that most people play every day.

WW

[Sven Nilsen]

Saltville was probably not your average backwoods Appalachian town.  Mathieson Alkali Works was by all accounts a very well known company, eventually producing many of the agricultural chemicals needed for fertilizers and pesticides.  The company basically owned the town, and at some point found enough of a social conscience to build things like a library, parks and a golf course.  They also owned concerns in the Northeast, and Thomas Mathieson, the founder of the company (who was backed by 7 prominent U.S. businessmen), was from England.

There's a bit of interesting history surrounding the town, including an important Civil War battle and the 1926 Muck Dam Collapse.

The only listing for the course appears in the 1931 Annual Guide, which notes:

Saltville GC - Org. 1925, 9 holes, 3,127 yards and Grass Greens.

I've seen accounts that the course actually opened in 1923.  This timing is interesting, as Raynor was "just up the road" at the Greenbrier around this time.

Here's a shot of the "redan" green.  The arrow indicates the general line of play.

[Mark Bourgeois]

 Doesn't sound like an unusual town for coal country Appalachia.

Old White opened in 1914. Macdonald designed it. Not sure if Raynor visited in 1923. Olmsted Bros kept him pretty busy elsewhere during this period. Also, in general the odds of finding a lost Macdonald or Raynor are extremely remote in my opinion. They were not prolific and their works were well documented. I guess someone like Ralph Barton Is possible but a better guess would be some random guy just copied the style he saw in person. Angular stuff wasn't all that unusual for rudimentary designs. Is there an entry in TAoG?

[Sven Nilsen]

Mark:

It wasn't coal country, it was salt country (but, yes, I get your point that there were a lot of company towns in those parts in those days).

Bahto has Raynor working at the Greenbrier on The Old White and the No. 3 course around 1921-22.  Its possible one of his associates did the work at Saltville, which would explain why there are two holes that look remarkably like a "short" and a "redan."

Let's be clear that I'm not saying this rises to anything beyond supposition at this point.  But the features in the first picture in the thread make me think this wasn't just some guy with a lawnmower.

Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Doesn't sound like an unusual town for coal country Appalachia.

Old White opened in 1914. Macdonald designed it. Not sure if Raynor visited in 1923. Olmsted Bros kept him pretty busy elsewhere during this period. Also, in general the odds of finding a lost Macdonald or Raynor are extremely remote in my opinion. They were not prolific and their works were well documented. I guess someone like Ralph Barton Is possible but a better guess would be some random guy just copied the style he saw in person. Angular stuff wasn't all that unusual for rudimentary designs. Is there an entry in TAoG?

I'm at work, but I think Raynor had ongoing projects with the other two courses, and he was forced to renovate one of them because it was considered too hard! Ah how things never change. My source is George's book which I was reading 3 weeks ago so I'll check when I get home as to the timeline.

[Nigel Islam]

For the record I don't actually believe Raynor designed Saltville, but I don't think you can completely discount it by location or timing. That Raynor cat got around!

[Matt Wharton]

Washington County native here (pleasantly surprised to see other people from the area).  Never played Saltville, but know a longtime "member" there (which can simply mean someone who plays every Saturday).

I would be shocked if any designer, other than the landowner(s), laid out the place.  At one time there were a number of nine-hole courses scattered throughout southwest Virginia and northeast Tennessee, all of which were back-and-forth, short, fun layouts.  Sadly, lots of them have closed (including Holston Valley (which fluctuated between nine and eighteen holes, depending on the annual mood of the farmer who owned six or seven of the holes) and East Hill, which sat on the campus of King College.  None of them had any pedigree but they all represent 98% of the golf courses that most people play every day.

WW

I played both Holston Valley and East Hill back in the day...fun tracks.  Another was Dan Hall Mountain Resort near Coeburn, VA (9 holes on top of a mountain with views of neighboring KY, WV, TN, and NC). 

Another poster referenced the square greens at Saltville and I do recall that being the case during my only visit there.  Dan Hall had square greens too.  I did a brief search through my old copy of Cornish & Whitten and came up empty.  I was searching not just for Saltville (not listed) but also other courses in the area such as Dan Hall (not listed), East Hill (not listed), Holston Hills CC in nearby Marion (Ed Ault in the 50's), and Wytheville CC (9 holes by Fred Finlay but year not listed).

Good Luck, my curiosity has the better of me considering I grew up in the surrounding area.

[Lawrence Largent]

Glenrochie used to be a nine hole layout that was really old.  I believe Dan maples came in and made it a 18 hole layout in the early to mid 80's.  The original nine had a lot of character and some really scary tilt in the greens.  I played East Hill and Holston Valley many times before their demise.

Lawrence

[Brian Ross]

Lonesome Pine CC in Big Stone Gap has 9 holes that date to 1924. I've always wondered to myself if there was any pedigree to it. There are a couple of really good golf holes out there.

Lawrence, I could be wrong, but I believe Glenrochie only dates to the late 50's.

Sven, not sure if you've seen this article, dated Dec. 1931, but it has the same photo in the headline that you posted above.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1931dec9.pdf

There's certainly nothing there to suggest Raynor or any other ODG was involved. More likely, one of the fellows involved had seen some of Raynor's work, perhaps at the Greenbrier, and became inspired.

[A.G._Crockett]

Mark:

It wasn't coal country, it was salt country (but, yes, I get your point that there were a lot of company towns in those parts in those days).

Bahto has Raynor working at the Greenbrier on The Old White and the No. 3 course around 1921-22.  Its possible one of his associates did the work at Saltville, which would explain why there are two holes that look remarkably like a "short" and a "redan."

Let's be clear that I'm not saying this rises to anything beyond supposition at this point.  But the features in the first picture in the thread make me think this wasn't just some guy with a lawnmower.

Sven

Sven,
Saltville IS in coal country; don't be distracted by the salt history.   Saltville has a unique history, and that history has turned the town into something of an ecological disaster today.  The distance between a town like Saltville and the Greenbriar in the 1920's was far, far more than the mileage, and remains so today.

I'll say it again; if a "name" GCA came to Saltville and laid out a course, I'll be the first to say I was wrong.  But the odds against it are just massive for very, very simple reasons. 

[Ed Oden]

For what it's worth, Raynor was also in Blowing Rock, NC (which is a lot closer to Saltville than the Greenbriar), although I'm not convinced anyone can say with compete certainty that they know the full story.  Most likely, he designed the original 9 holes for the Green Park Inn in roughly 1915, then Ross redesigned and added another 9 in 1922, followed by Banks changes in the late 20s/early 30s, with the course eventually becoming Blowing Rock Country Club in 1939.  My guess is that Mathieson or someone else in Saltville had seen Raynor's work at the Green Park or the Greenbriar and tried to copy what they saw.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
Saltville IS in coal country; don't be distracted by the salt history.   

A.G. - Merely a joke because of the town's name.

Was Saltville on the Norfolk & Western line?  Would that have made getting around a bit easier?

Sven

[A.G._Crockett]

Sven,
Saltville IS in coal country; don't be distracted by the salt history.   

A.G. - Merely a joke because of the town's name.

Was Saltville on the Norfolk & Western line?  Would that have made getting around a bit easier?

Sven

Sven,
It's not the getting around that is the problem in that part of the world.  It's the money.  Saltville is smack in the middle of Appalachia, and people were and are largely poor.  There are no golf courses of the type you are thinking about anywhere around there in any of the towns in that part of the state.

I can go with the idea that somebody tried to copy what they had seen somewhere.  But I don't have the imagination to think of a Raynor or Ross or any of those guys going to that part of the world; there just wasn't the money to make that happen.

[Sven Nilsen]

AG -

Mathieson Alkali Works had the money and it was that entity that had the course built.  The company had links to the Northeast (their main offices were in NYC), and certainly had the connections to get in touch with a name designer.  I don't think its fair to rule out the possibility at this point for the reasons you've stated.

From the Harvard Business School write-up on the company:

"Mathieson Alkali Works was founded to take advantage of natural salt deposits in Saltville, Virginia. Neil Mathieson, a British soda ash and bleaching powder merchant, obtained a charter in Virginia to open an alkali plant in 1892. Mathieson bought out the Holston Salt and Plaster Company and sent his son Thomas and fifty workers to establish the new company. Bleaching powder was the main product. It was manufactured using electrolytic cells that forced chlorine to be absorbed in lime. The company also ran a factory near Niagara Falls, with its abundant electric power supply and nearby salt mines. The company pioneered commercial production of liquid chlorine in 1909. The liquefied chlorine was immediately in demand as a bleaching agent and for industrial use. In 1919 Mathieson began producing ammonia, a byproduct of electrolytic alkali processes, for sale. A form of soluble, dry, stable chlorine known as calcium hypochlorite went on the market in 1928 under the name HTH. In the 1930s Mathieson began shipping caustics for use in rayon manufacture. The company also sold sodium bicarbonate for cooking and industry, alkali for pH control, and dry ice and carbonic gas. In 1934 the company built an ammonium-soda plant in Lake Charles, Louisiana.  Chlorine was in high demand during the Second World War. Mathieson chlorine was used in high-octane jet and tank fuel, in cooling fluids for engines, in plastics and insulation, in explosives and fire extinguishers, in fabrics, and in water-treatment facilities. In 1949 Mathieson expanded to manufacture fertilizers, pesticides, and sulfuric acid for agriculture and industry. It grew in the early 1950s, acquiring the E.R. Squibb & Sons pharmaceutical company in 1952. Squibb was spun off in 1968.

Olin and Mathieson each had sales of $250 million in 1954, the year they merged into the Olin Mathieson Chemical Corporation."

Sven