Dufner on Doral

[Mike Sweeney]

For those of you criticizing the re-design:

1. If you have not watched these flyovers which show the changes and the old lines, I strongly encourage you to do so.
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-front-9-then-and-now/

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-back-9-then-and-now/

These were very well done, thanks for posting

[Bill_McBride]

I played Doral Blue several times but not for 25 years.    Did Trump create new lakes?   I don't remember all that water in the dogleg of #16.   

[jeffwarne]

water was always there Bill.
They expanded the lake a bit and moved the fairway over a bit and the green over to the left a LOT.
in it's old form,I've actually seen quite a few balls hit in the water on the right on that hole. long and right-usually skulled out of the fairway or greenside bunkers.

[Pat Burke]

1) Haven't been to the new Doral
2) I know a little about some of these guys games, but not a lot compared to when I played

My personal feeling when I played was praying for wind.  For whatever reason, I liked the wind,
and seemed to have good results in it.  I believe a big part of that, was that I was pretty comfortable
in adjusting my "par" in windy conditions.  I was more patient with the insanity on a day like Friday at Doral,
and was pretty good at taking what the conditions gave me.
I was also comfortable moving the ball both directions, it was one of the reasons I loved playing in Australia
so much.  Great courses, and pretty constant windy conditions!!
BTW..I actually worked the ball (with) the wind for the most part.

[Ryan Coles]

I know of no player who can fade a nine iron to counter a 20 mph right to left wind.

[jeffwarne]

I know of no player who can fade a nine iron to counter a 20 mph right to left wind.

What exactly do you think Kuchar did?
and there's no rule saying he had to hit a 9 iron.
Lot easier to mitigate wind and create left to right curve (or in this case less right to left curve) with a less lofted club
Whatever he did was a mistake or he was surprised, but it's hard to call a situation unfair when THE VERY next player hits it 4 feet from the pin NOWHERE near the water

Not saying a 30 mph right to left won't make the ball eventually curve and fall left, I'm saying starting it out with a draw and riding a 30 mph right to left wind to a hard, thatchless, fast green sloping left with water left, will need a LOT of room to stop rolling.
More room than Dusting gave it

[Ryan Coles]

Sorry but when some players are trying to land in the bunkers (hazards) rather than the greens, something has gone slightly awry. Doral is not suitable for firm conditions or a decent wind due to the necessity to go the aerial route.

Mickelson, one of the most creative guys out there said on Friday that rather than present options, the course offered none.

[Bill Brightly]

Sorry but when some players are trying to land in the bunkers (hazards) rather than the greens, something has gone slightly awry. Doral is not suitable for firm conditions or a decent wind due to the necessity to go the aerial route.

Mickelson, one of the most creative guys out there said on Friday that rather than present options, the course offered none.

Ryan, what hole (s) are players consistently choosing to land in the bunkers?

[Ryan Coles]

Several players including woods have mentioned trying to do just that in post round interviews. I suspect any hole where you can't land the ball short and run it up. Or any hole where you cannot land on the green and stop it.

[Alex Miller]

Several players including woods have mentioned trying to do just that in post round interviews. I suspect any hole where you can't land the ball short and run it up. Or any hole where you cannot land on the green and stop it.

The greens are essentially new. I see this as a temporary "problem". In a year or two it's likely the risk/reward presented will be just right as the greens should be more receptive.

[BCowan]

Several players including woods have mentioned trying to do just that in post round interviews. I suspect any hole where you can't land the ball short and run it up. Or any hole where you cannot land on the green and stop it.

The greens are essentially new. I see this as a temporary "problem". In a year or two it's likely the risk/reward presented will be just right as the greens should be more receptive.

the green firmness is great!  I wish Trump would spend the extra money he has and redo the greens every year so they are this firm, don't take away the only thing I like about the set-up!  D Johnson should have landed his shot on 15 on the front of the green, these guys don't hit half shots anymore, the hole was downwind.

[Ken Fry]

BTW..I actually worked the ball (with) the wind for the most part.

Pat,

That's really interesting.  Don't you find it difficult to judge the "run out" working the ball with the wind as opposed to the quick bite working against the wind?

Ken

[Matthew Petersen]

Several players including woods have mentioned trying to do just that in post round interviews. I suspect any hole where you can't land the ball short and run it up. Or any hole where you cannot land on the green and stop it.

The greens are essentially new. I see this as a temporary "problem". In a year or two it's likely the risk/reward presented will be just right as the greens should be more receptive.

I agree. GMac said after his Friday round that he was actually impressed with how well the balls stayed in place on the greens, not oscillating. That suggests that the firmness of a new green plus the wind were the real culprits, not the length of cut/speed of the green. Though I'm sure the greens will be slower the other 51 weeks of the year.

Brand new courses are really, really firm. No real way around that.

[BCowan]

Matt

   Why can't the greens be the same firmness and slower?  Doesn't that determine the best player?  Softer and fast is boring IMHO.  In the Open last year the greens got super fast, then they let it get too soft IMHO.  Raise the mowers when it is very windy, let the firmness be!  The beauty of new greens as that you can over water them like most US courses and they are still firm!  Can F&F have greens running at 10, instead of 12?

[Tim_Cronin]

Some wind stats, since nobody has mentioned them:
Friday West 23 high average, with high gust 33
Saturday East 6-10 all day

----

In his report, Newport mentioned something I saw somewhere else as well:

The challenges of Hanse's revise at Doral may be plain to see from the tee, but they're tricky. "We were interested to see if angles could become relevant again," he said. Working with ideas that were drawn up but never executed by the course's original designer, Dick Wilson, Hanse built many of the new fairway bunkers on diagonals that require players to shape their tee shots to achieve maximum distance.

"It's a lost art, I think, but we're trying to see if we can challenge today's professional to get to certain sides or places in the fairways with the best angles into the greens," Hanse said. "If they don't shape their shots, they may have to use an iron or a three-wood off the tee to stay short." Hanse and his partner, Jim Wagner, elevated parts of many fairways by several feet, tilting a few, to give new looks to some holes and add wrinkles to the tactics players have to devise on each tee.

-----

It should be noted the Al Kaskel all but threw Dick Wilson off the property during construction because Wilson was drunk so often. Joe Lee and Robert Von Hagge finished Doral, while Wilson sobered up and toiled on Pine Tree, which is a masterpiece. Lee and Von Hagge either simplified what Wilson had planned on their own or did so on Kaskel's orders, but Wilson was a fan of diagonals – see Pine Tree's par-3 13th for an excellent example – and making a player think. It's delightful to know Hanse was able to consult Wilson's diagrams for inspiration. It's also not a surprise that many players play by rote and don't think.

Taking into account the need for the greens to thatch in and for the rough to thicken as well, I'd say Doral gave a good account of itself in harsh conditions. In 2015, in similar conditions, the stroke average is probably 1 to 1.3 strokes lower, and some of that is because players have a year of experience on the greens. Friday was fascinating, as was Saturday, and I expect nothing less from today.

[Bill Brightly]

Several players including woods have mentioned trying to do just that in post round interviews. I suspect any hole where you can't land the ball short and run it up. Or any hole where you cannot land on the green and stop it.

I'd like to know the players and the circumstances. I'll bet any amount of money that it was one or two players choosing a line at the bunker rather than risk a water hazard penalty. It probably was a par 5 and they wanted to get as close as possible to the green. The fact that one or two PRO players rely upon their phenomenal abilities out of sand says absolutely nothing about golf course deign.

[Ryan Coles]

Several players including woods have mentioned trying to do just that in post round interviews. I suspect any hole where you can't land the ball short and run it up. Or any hole where you cannot land on the green and stop it.

I'd like to know the players and the circumstances. I'll bet any amount of money that it was one or two players choosing a line at the bunker rather than risk a water hazard penalty. It probably was a par 5 and they wanted to get as close as possible to the green. The fact that one or two PRO players rely upon their phenomenal abilities out of sand says absolutely nothing about golf course deign.

It speaks volumes to me.

Really, a player chooses to play for a hazard? You said yourself in your letter re: bunker maintenance. "Don't hit it there".

It it becomes a preferable option because there is water behind the green and no prospect of landing short down wind, in my view that's a lousy hole.

A player aiming for a bunker tells me that the bunker is nowhere near severe enough. And that the treatment of a shot toward the target is far too severe. As I said earlier in the thread, players don't try and go in the bunkers at Muirfield, County Down or the Old Course for good reason.

[Mark Saltzman]

Several players including woods have mentioned trying to do just that in post round interviews. I suspect any hole where you can't land the ball short and run it up. Or any hole where you cannot land on the green and stop it.

I'd like to know the players and the circumstances. I'll bet any amount of money that it was one or two players choosing a line at the bunker rather than risk a water hazard penalty. It probably was a par 5 and they wanted to get as close as possible to the green. The fact that one or two PRO players rely upon their phenomenal abilities out of sand says absolutely nothing about golf course deign.

It speaks volumes to me.

Really, a player chooses to play for a hazard? You said yourself in your letter re: bunker maintenance. "Don't hit it there".

It it becomes a preferable option because there is water behind the green and no prospect of landing short down wind, in my view that's a lousy hole.

A player aiming for a bunker tells me that the bunker is nowhere near severe enough. And that the treatment of a shot toward the target is far too severe. As I said earlier in the thread, players don't try and go in the bunkers at Muirfield, County Down or the Old Course for good reason.

Can we please be told on what holes this strategy was used? Until you provide examples, it's a waste of time discussing this.

Maybe the player was out of position from the tee and FROM THERE the best he could do was a green side bunker.

[Ryan Coles]

You chaps are right. Phil is lying, Tiger Woods is lying. 300 balls in the water is just like the golden age guys intended. What a wonderful test. I wish more courses were like this. These lousy best players in the world just don't know how to adapt. The only thing missing is some wonderful flat bunkers in the shape of Mickey Mouse ears.

[jeffwarne]

You chaps are right. Phil is lying, Tiger Woods is lying. 300 balls in the water is just like the golden age guys intended. What a wonderful test. I wish more courses were like this. These lousy best players in the world just don't know how to adapt. The only thing missing is some wonderful flat bunkers in the shape of Mickey Mouse ears.

I'm trying to grasp how the course has no strategy because it has 4 more holes where the greens were brought closer to the existing ponds,yet the width on the opposite side was left there. (other than 15 where the pond was enlarged also)........
yet it also has no strategy because players are aiming for bunkers, that are evidently not severe enough.(like we never see players aiming for bunkers in a US Open)

Doral didn't invent the perfectly maintained bunker that's barely a hazard for pros

The ball can be run up at Doral on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,13,14,17, and even 18 assuming the player is in position
the fairways have TONS of width to allow these positions.

On one of the few holes with less of a runup otion, it doesn't seem a stretch to force the player to work the ball into the wind FROM 150 YARDS to allow a birdie chance, as Kuchar did, moments after the supposedly "unfair" Johnson shot.

We get it, It's not Muirfield or TOC, though Muirfield would've been way better last year if they'd let the greens be as firm as Doral's.

[Matthew Petersen]

Matt

   Why can't the greens be the same firmness and slower?  Doesn't that determine the best player?  Softer and fast is boring IMHO.  In the Open last year the greens got super fast, then they let it get too soft IMHO.  Raise the mowers when it is very windy, let the firmness be!  The beauty of new greens as that you can over water them like most US courses and they are still firm!  Can F&F have greens running at 10, instead of 12?

I don't think that's a terrible thing generally, but it's sure not going to happen for a PGA event. And as a practical matter, I don't know how firm they'll be able to keep the course ultimately. I am sure they will do what they can, but brand new courses are just firm in a way that is very, very difficult to preserve. I imagine this is especially so in south Florida.

[Ryan Coles]

You chaps are right. Phil is lying, Tiger Woods is lying. 300 balls in the water is just like the golden age guys intended. What a wonderful test. I wish more courses were like this. These lousy best players in the world just don't know how to adapt. The only thing missing is some wonderful flat bunkers in the shape of Mickey Mouse ears.

I'm trying to grasp how the course has no strategy because it has 4 more holes where the greens were brought closer to the existing ponds,yet the width on the opposite side was left there. (other than 15 where the pond was enlarged also)........
yet it also has no strategy because players are aiming for bunkers, that are evidently not severe enough.(like we never see players aiming for bunkers in a US Open)

Doral didn't invent the perfectly maintained bunker that's barely a hazard for pros

The ball can be run up at Doral on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,13,14,17, and even 18 assuming the player is in position
the fairways have TONS of width to allow these positions.

On one of the few holes with less of a runup otion, it doesn't seem a stretch to force the player to work the ball into the wind FROM 150 YARDS to allow a birdie chance, as Kuchar did, moments after the supposedly "unfair" Johnson shot.

We get it, It's not Muirfield or TOC, though Muirfield would've been way better last year if they'd let the greens be as firm as Doral's.

In practice the approaches are nowhere near as firm as the greens. From what I can see, the rare ball that lands short, stays short.

That cultured shotmaker Kuchar hit right on the front of the green on the long par 3 and still ended up in the water. I've never seen anyone hit a great recovery from the water.

Saying that that players have the option of running it in, is as true to the same extent as saying anyone can be president.

[Ryan Coles]

Duplicate

[Jason Thurman]

You chaps are right. Phil is lying, Tiger Woods is lying.

It's not really the point, but FIGJAM and a serial adulterer really aren't the most credible sources now that you mention it.

All anyone is asking for is context. Get out of the whambulance and just explain on which holes a bunker is Position A. I'd be shocked if pros were actually aiming for bunkers instead of a green or fairway. I wouldn't be shocked if pros were trying to set up so that a miss found a bunker instead of the water. That's just basic course management.

[jeffwarne]

You chaps are right. Phil is lying, Tiger Woods is lying. 300 balls in the water is just like the golden age guys intended. What a wonderful test. I wish more courses were like this. These lousy best players in the world just don't know how to adapt. The only thing missing is some wonderful flat bunkers in the shape of Mickey Mouse ears.

I'm trying to grasp how the course has no strategy because it has 4 more holes where the greens were brought closer to the existing ponds,yet the width on the opposite side was left there. (other than 15 where the pond was enlarged also)........
yet it also has no strategy because players are aiming for bunkers, that are evidently not severe enough.(like we never see players aiming for bunkers in a US Open)

Doral didn't invent the perfectly maintained bunker that's barely a hazard for pros

The ball can be run up at Doral on 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10,13,14,17, and even 18 assuming the player is in position
the fairways have TONS of width to allow these positions.

On one of the few holes with less of a runup otion, it doesn't seem a stretch to force the player to work the ball into the wind FROM 150 YARDS to allow a birdie chance, as Kuchar did, moments after the supposedly "unfair" Johnson shot.

We get it, It's not Muirfield or TOC, though Muirfield would've been way better last year if they'd let the greens be as firm as Doral's.

In practice the approaches are nowhere near as firm as the greens. From what I can see, the rare ball that lands short, stays short.

That cultured shotmaker Kuchar hit right on the front of the green on the long par 3 and still ended up in the water. I've never seen anyone hit a great recovery from the water.

Name a PGA Tour site with firm greens that has approaches equally as firm

Never said Kuchar was a shotmaker.
he just happens to play a fade  which on 15 Friday was useful
Never liked that hole (#4 if that's the one you're referring to)

was going to have some fun but you changed it from #11