Dufner on Doral

[Bill Brightly]

For those of you criticizing the re-design:

1. If you have not watched these flyovers which show the changes and the old lines, I strongly encourage you to do so.
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-front-9-then-and-now/

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-back-9-then-and-now/

2. There can be no denying that much more width was added, playing options increased, and excellent tree removal was accomplished.

3. The architect seems to have fulfilled the owner's marching orders: make a course that presents US Open-like challenges to the world's best players. Don't worry if the course is probably too hard for the average golfer, people sleep in their cars for the chance to play Bethpage Black from the wrong set of tees; Doral's tee sheet will be filled with golfers anxious to play where the pros play.

Bill, people are going to sleep in their car to play a US Open track that is affordable in New York, that is a given.  Of course Doral's sheet will be filled they host a PGA tour event and did a big renovation.  Was Bethpage as packed prior to renovation?  Yes he did add width, did he add hazards?  Will adding of hazards effect more future courses adding them to try and be like Doral?  Were bunkers added?  If a pro tourney didn't exist there, would people like loosing 3 balls a round?  My definition of strategic, which has many meanings would be multiple lines off a tee shot (TOC) without water being the penalty on 12 holes. 

I did not complete a full count, but I think Gil reduced the number of sand hazards, and significantly increased the number of water hazards around the putting surfaces.

You ask if this work will effect future courses and make them be more like Doral. I HIGHLY doubt it. Work like this is probably only possible in Florida, where digging to find water is easy. So theoretically, a great number of Florida courses could this. I can't see private clubs making changes to be more like Doral; the members would hate it. Same thing with retail public courses. I certainly would not want to play a course like this on a repeat basis... But this is the Monster. It is supposed to be an extremely hard course, one hard enough to challenge the pros. It is supposed to be unique. Let's hope it remains unique...

[Ken Fry]

For those of you criticizing the re-design:

1. If you have not watched these flyovers which show the changes and the old lines, I strongly encourage you to do so.
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-front-9-then-and-now/

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-back-9-then-and-now/

2. There can be no denying that much more width was added, playing options increased, and excellent tree removal was accomplished.

3. The architect seems to have fulfilled the owner's marching orders: make a course that presents US Open-like challenges to the world's best players. Don't worry if the course is probably too hard for the average golfer, people sleep in their cars for the chance to play Bethpage Black from the wrong set of tees; Doral's tee sheet will be filled with golfers anxious to play where the pros play.

Bill,

Thanks for those links.  Wonderful demonstration of the hole by hole changes.  It's interesting how much the fairways and greens have grown.

Ken

[Kyle Casella]

>30 players under par today. Oh no, the course is now not hard enough!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The wind was often blowing at more than 20 mph in South Florida in the last 24 hours.
Did you play in South Florida, close to Doral today, or are your comments based solely from viewing the telecast ?

Pat, according to you, if you were only "close to Doral" your observations are worthless.

What's worthless is your opinion.

Close to Doral allows me to validate the wind conditions you moron.

South Bend is a few miles from the campus, you weren't on campus and you weren't on site to judge what the conditions were.

The campus is within the South Bend city limits you moron.

[Ryan Coles]

Just heard a player say he deliberately laid up into a bunker.

Would you class this as a design failure?

Certainly no one deliberately hits into the bunkers at St Andrews, Muirfield etc

[Michael Moore]

Close to Doral allows me to validate the wind conditions

Then why did you object to Sven Nilsen's description of the wind conditions at Notre Dame Stadium on the day that Declan Sullivan died?

P.S. Please don't call me names.

[Keith OHalloran]

Patrick,,
I know, from your postings, that JR has a faulty memory of wind conditions in south Florida. I was wondering if you could comment on Pat Burke's recollection? I appreciate it, I am trying to figure out how much weight to give a former tour pro.

[Mark Fedeli]

Guys, guys, guys. The real verdict is in. Johnny Miller thinks Gil should have put more trees in play. He likes the palms on 18, though, because if you miss that fairway right "you should not have a shot."

[Keith OHalloran]

If that is the case, I wonder what Johnny thinks of Oakmont? He played here once right? 

[Jason Thurman]

Ken

    Don't lump #2 in that category it is very playable day in and day out as are many other Championship Ross courses.  The average guy can break 90 at #2 and not lose a ball in the process!  It also can be set up for the best players in the world, that is the beauty of it!  Using creative means to make a course challenging vs digging water hazards all over the place! 

Umm, I think you completely missed the point. #2 is playable day in and day out, but under Open conditions it's brutally tough for anyone. Likewise, Doral is presented this week in tournament condition. That doesn't necessarily preclude it from being playable for resort guests. Everyone on this thread who HAS played it has deemed it very playable. Then again, the original Mulranny thread showed that you tend to trust propaganda over credible sources, so it's not surprising that you disregard those firsthand accounts.

Also, can you explain what Donald Ross, Pinehurst No. 2, and Kingsley have to do with the Blue Monster at Doral or, for that matter, Muirfield Village? Is it your contention that all courses should follow the same basic tenets? That sounds pretty boring.

Obviously today has shown that the course is playable. For those who thought it didn't accommodate the wind yesterday, just how low should players be able to go in a ~30 mph wind on a WGC course?

Again, I'm not convinced that it's a great course or anything, but the rumors of it being over-the-top difficult are about as over-exaggerated as the rumors of Tiger's demise.

[BCowan]

Ken

    Don't lump #2 in that category it is very playable day in and day out as are many other Championship Ross courses.  The average guy can break 90 at #2 and not lose a ball in the process!  It also can be set up for the best players in the world, that is the beauty of it!  Using creative means to make a course challenging vs digging water hazards all over the place!  

Umm, I think you completely missed the point. #2 is playable day in and day out, but under Open conditions it's brutally tough for anyone. Likewise, Doral is presented this week in tournament condition. That doesn't necessarily preclude it from being playable for resort guests. Everyone on this thread who HAS played it has deemed it very playable. Then again, the original Mulranny thread showed that you tend to trust propaganda over credible sources, so it's not surprising that you disregard those firsthand accounts.
Like I said above during everyday play a golfer is going to lose lots of balls at Doral!  I don't trust propaganda, prove it loud mouth!
Also, can you explain what Donald Ross, Pinehurst No. 2, and Kingsley have to do with the Blue Monster at Doral or, for that matter, Muirfield Village? Is it your contention that all courses should follow the same basic tenets? That sounds pretty boring.Real simple great courses don't need water on 12+ holes.  You continue to use extremes to try and make a point, which is stupid.

Obviously today has shown that the course is playable. For those who thought it didn't accommodate the wind yesterday, just how low should players be able to go in a ~30 mph wind on a WGC course?Yeah, many tough courses are very playable under low wind conditions by the best players in the world, the water comes into play more for the average golfer.

Again, I'm not convinced that it's a great course or anything, but the rumors of it being over-the-top difficult are about as over-exaggerated as the rumors of Tiger's demise.Never said it was over the top difficult, I said using hazards on 12+ holes to add difficulty is rather lame, but you are free to make your own conclusions.

[BHoover]

The course is playable. That was proven beyond a reasonable doubt today. Maybe you like water hazards or maybe you don't. But there's certainly room for all types of courses. No one course is going to please everyone.

[Jason Thurman]

So Ben, what you're really saying is that you took roughly 15 posts and 6000 words to say "I don't like water hazards"? Fair enough.

I don't think anyone was calling Trump Doral a "great" course anyways, though it has produced an impressive tournament with some pretty compelling swings on the leaderboard.

[BCowan]

Nope, i said they are overused to create difficulty and I cited courses that were adding water hazards.  Goes a little deeper than that.  The tournament has turned out well, but the beauty of a great course is one that can play very tough when set up for it and one that the average player doesn't lose 3+ balls on in everyday rounds.  Yes, the tourney is shaping up pretty well and that wasn't my focus (pros)

[Keith OHalloran]

Nope, i said they are overused to create difficulty and I cited courses that were adding water hazards.  Goes a little deeper than that.  That it has, but the beauty of a great course is one that can play very tough when set up for it and one that the average player doesn't lose 3+ balls on.  Yes, the tourney is shaping up pretty well and that wasn't my focus (pros)

Whatever you just said, I am sure it was beautiful.

[BCowan]

Keith, i corrected it. I forget to hit the preview button

[Jason Thurman]

Why is losing balls a big deal at a course with a $450 green fee? I'd say the people playing at Trump Doral can afford a full sleeve or two, wouldn't you?

It is nice that you don't lose balls when you play Pinehurst No. 2. Then again, they give you two Titleist Velocity sleeves when you check in, which is a far bigger insult at that $400+ dollar price point than watching your ProV1 trickle off into a lateral hazard. I wish Pinehurst would have the decency to install some water hazards to sink those pieces of crap in.

Does Trump Doral give you any free SWAG when you play there? Anyone know?

[Wade Whitehead]

Trump's hyperbole in the booth today included the interesting insinuation that a "world" championship should present as difficult a test as players face all year.  With a ten-year contract for the event, he wanted to be known as the hardest of the WGC series.

WW

[Mike_Young]

Does anyone on here think Doral could be built with no water hazards? 

[jeffwarne]

Does anyone on here think Doral could be built with no water hazards? 

sure just bring in the dirt to raise the fairways in the chopper
the lakes aren't new(other than 15), they just moved the greens snug to them in a few(more) cases

[BCowan]

Does anyone on here think Doral could be built with no water hazards? 

 

Nope..  It has around 325 acres right?  Do the hazards have to be in play?   

''sure just bring in the dirt to raise the fairways in the chopper Grin
the lakes aren't new(other than 15), they just moved the greens snug to them in a few(more) cases''

 

[jeffwarne]

Does anyone on here think Doral could be built with no water hazards? 

 

Nope..  It has around 325 acres right?  Do the hazards have to be in play?   



 

Wouldn't an "out of play" hazard be an oxymoronic statement?

[BCowan]

Does anyone on here think Doral could be built with no water hazards?  

 

Nope..  It has around 325 acres right?  Do the hazards have to be in play?  

haha, good point.  retention pond.  which would be good for u
Wouldn't an "out of play" hazard be an oxymoronic statement?

haha, good point.  retention pond.  which would be good for u

[John Percival]

FROM A SPECTATOR PERSPECTIVE...
   one of the, if not the, most compelling elements of tournament viewing is the water hazard. ESPECIALLY with the pro's short game acumen, and their frequent escapes from terrain misplays, aqua brings about leaderboard swings and creates excitement and keeps eyes on the telecast. FROM A SPECTATOR PERSPECTIVE.
Also, the water that now is so prevalent at Doral can be mitigated just by growing grass longer along edges and, more obviously, through softer conditions. You can be certain that once the last shot has been played Sunday, the water is gonna flow freely on the course.

As difficult as the Blue Monster has been, it's still tamer than Whistling Straights (with little water in play. Lake Michigan is more removed than it looks). And WS does just fine with their greens fees.

[Bill Brightly]

Also, the water that now is so prevalent at Doral can be mitigated just by growing grass longer along edges and, more obviously, through softer conditions. You can be certain that once the last shot has been played Sunday, the water is gonna flow freely on the course.

That's a really good point. They can let the grass grow a little higher on the slopes when the pros leave. Will they? I think a very significant percentage of the pros' balls that trickled down the slopes into the water would have been held up with a slightly higher cut.