Dufner on Doral

[jeffwarne]

First, if its a 30 MPH wind, how do you know someone is DRAWING the ball with a 9 iron.  For all we know, they could have hit a straight ball and the wind took it to where it looked like a draw.  Use your heads.

Umm... that would be because on TV from behind the player he aimed 30 yards right and  his ball started 30 yards right of the green, and two golf professional friends of mine were there and watched him start the shot as a draw, which was then engulfed by the wind.
And his teacher was on TV yesterday taliking about he has his players RIDE the wind rather than curve it into it and fight it, which REALLY surprised me-not saying he told Dustin that specifically
AND
the next player in his group hit a shot that held the wind, landed gently, and stopped 4 feet from the flag?
We're not talking about working some fancy long iron shot from 220, but rather controlling the curve and spin of a short iron, which all of these players can.
So if you want to be really picky, we can say he didn't cut it enough

Out here on the east end we play in a lot of wind.
I remember playing the 125 yard 11th hole Atlantic which tilts left and the prevailing wind is 20mph right to left.
In such a wind or stronger,i used to hit anywhere from cut 7 iron to slice 4 iron to keep it from hitting the green and exploding left down a steep slope.
I'm sure Dustin was surprised-I'm not indicting him(he's leading ), perhaps he executed poorly or misjudged the shot-it happens.
Just saying that shot wouldn't work on a windy links either

[Brent Hutto]

So I guess the classic parable should have been about the Hedgehog (knows one thing), the Fox (knows many things) and the Mucci (knows everything).

Then again maybe Pat knew Isaiah Berlin personally and can clarify it for us...

[JR Potts]

First, if its a 30 MPH wind, how do you know someone is DRAWING the ball with a 9 iron.  For all we know, they could have hit a straight ball and the wind took it to where it looked like a draw.  Use your heads.

Just saying that shot wouldn't work on a windy links either

But the ball wouldn't roll off the green, down a bank, through the rough and into a water hazard on a links course....and have the same opportunity to do so on 11 other holes.

We're comparing uncomparables.  That said, the course seems to be much more playable today.

[Ian Andrew]

Is anyone stunned that South Florida gets windy in early March? Does this make anyone excited to pay $450 to play there? I remember Trevino describing a particular Florida resort course as one where most people play once, loose about a dozen balls in the water, and then never come again. He might bring that line back after today. Trump says he is happy but I can't believe today helped future business.

Tom,

I thought the opposite - this is ideal for business - its now a "must play round" for the many who like to play tough courses.

I think it moved Doral back on the radar for that group after all the carnage. I played it as a kid because I had the game, it was famous "and I wanted to see how tough it really was."

I've been to Florida 5 times in the last 7 years and driven by it 3 times without a seconds thought of playing there. I can't say I'd go back at the price, but I might if that's not the price.

[jeffwarne]

Is anyone stunned that South Florida gets windy in early March? Does this make anyone excited to pay $450 to play there? I remember Trevino describing a particular Florida resort course as one where most people play once, loose about a dozen balls in the water, and then never come again. He might bring that line back after today. Trump says he is happy but I can't believe today helped future business.

Tim,

I thought the opposite - this is ideal for business - its now a "must play round" for the many who like to play tough courses.

I think it moved Doral back on the radar for that group after all the carnage. I played it as a kid because I had the game, it was famous "and I wanted to see how tough it really was."

I've been to Florida 5 times in the last 7 years and driven by it 3 times without a seconds thought of playing there. I can't say I'd go back at the price, but I might if that's not the price.

Ian,
Agree.....with....every....word
Next time you drive by it though take a 1 mile detour and play Miami Springs

for the last 20 years the words "Monster" weren't accurate by comparison to other Tour horrow shows.
They will line up to pump balls into the water.....

[BCowan]

I agree with Ian and Jeff too.  Any tour stop is going to have people lined up to play. 

[Mark Saltzman]

Is anyone stunned that South Florida gets windy in early March? Does this make anyone excited to pay $450 to play there? I remember Trevino describing a particular Florida resort course as one where most people play once, loose about a dozen balls in the water, and then never come again. He might bring that line back after today. Trump says he is happy but I can't believe today helped future business.

Tim,

I thought the opposite - this is ideal for business - its now a "must play round" for the many who like to play tough courses.

I think it moved Doral back on the radar for that group after all the carnage. I played it as a kid because I had the game, it was famous "and I wanted to see how tough it really was."

I've been to Florida 5 times in the last 7 years and driven by it 3 times without a seconds thought of playing there. I can't say I'd go back at the price, but I might if that's not the price.

Ian,
Agree.....with....every....word
Next time you drive by it though take a 1 mile detour and play Miami Springs

for the last 20 years the words "Monster" weren't accurate by comparison to other Tour horrow shows.
They will line up to pump balls into the water.....

Jeff, got any more under the radar recommendations from Miami to Vero?

[Tim Martin]

I think it is more than compelling to watch these guys try to get it around this golf course in the conditions they have experienced so far. These greens will soften as time marches on and you won't see nearly the carnage in coming years. If one day in extreme conditions causing higher than average scores by the best players in the world constitutes a referendum on Hanse's work then the board isn't as open minded as I thought.

[jeffwarne]

Mark,
when I was in Miami in the winters I was all teaching all the time and didn't play much..
As I said, I was quite impressed by Miami Springs(esp the back nine!), about a mile away. I used to escape there the one summer I lived in Miami(1995) but the conditions were really rough and I assumed they would close.
I played most of my golf on the old White course at Doral, prior to the Norman debacle.
This past week it was in very playable condition(muni) and the greens were quite good.
the areas around the green were pretty rough/dicey and required some runup imagination but I enjoy that.

Just played West Palm Beach Municipal which is OK-no water and sandy scrub roughs, but would've loved to have seen sand areas incorporated imaginatively rather than always flanking.

Was very tempted to drive out to Clewiston from WPB, but had some work logistics.

I truly doubt I would play much golf if I lived on the south east coast of Florida

[Mark Saltzman]

Jeff, to play here? http://www.clewiston-fl.gov/department/?fDD=6-0

Never heard of it.

[Ken Fry]

Ken, I didn't know that the pro's lost 113 balls at Shinnecock and that you couldn't use a ground game at Shinnecock?  I much prefer a tough Shennecock and it fairly determines the best golfer.  Would Cory Pavin win at Doral in his prime?  How many forced carries at Doral?  I loath the TPC too.  ''how dare someone criticize Pete Dye on here''.  Brent or Jeff made a great point that the greens were running too fast.  F&F has to have a means of running shots up.  F&F on a Rees Jones track is not good IMO.  It has been the worst winter I can remember and that is my rant!

Ben,

Cory Pavin didn't win at Shinnecock when the goofy set up was done, that was Retief Goosen in 2004.  The players were forced to adjust to what amounted to a course pushed over the edge, but it was a US Open and most applauded the USGA for a great tournament.  No, 113 balls were not lost at Shinnecock.  Scores ballooned because players were playing ping pong on greens all day. THAT'S hypocrisy.

Doral's set-up was pushed to be firm and fast and weather bit them in the backside.  What's interesting is how many guys were complaining about how unfair the course was before Friday??

Ken

[BCowan]

I know Cory won in 95'.  I don't like greens getting that fast at the Open, less green space can be used.  Ken, i did complain about Doral prior to Friday's round!  No, that Open was criticized and it was the par 3 7th hole if i recall at Shinney.  Hypocrisy, please!  Retif was -4 when he won.  I prefer Ping pong over splash and splash

[Ken Fry]

The hypocrisy is amazing.  This is a resort course, remember.  I truly believed you guys that you thought that courses should not be built or designed for one week.  I truly believed you guys that you favored golf courses where you could play the whole round with one ball.  I truly believed you guys when you said that only good courses are playable in all conditions.  I guess all those beliefs get suspended when one of GCA's own designs something that meets none of these standards.

When one of GCA's own builds a brutal, unplayable in wind, water-world, it's fine because we are showing the best in world what it's like to truly suffer.

It's okay when a sacred cow does it...just not when Rees, Jack or Fazio does it.  I got it.

Can't wait for the adoring public to get destroyed out there over the next 51 weeks. God bless the guy who gets the ball retrieving contact...as there will be thousands of brand new ProV1s in those waters in weeks.  Hopefully alligators aren't allergic to elastomer...or were going to have a crisis in our hands.

JR,

Really?  Pinehurst #2 prepped for a US Open is easy for resort guests??  How about Pebble Beach?  Stroll in the park for those resort guests?  Whistling Straits?  Chambers Bay?  Erin Hills?  Bethpage Black?  Black Wolf Run?  TPC Sawgrass?  Should I keep going?

Doral is set up tough for this week.  The world's best golfers are on it and that's how it's suppose to play.  What's it going to be like beyond this week?  Set up as a resort course or public course, just like all the other courses listed above are.

I haven't been to Doral so I can't fairly judge the architecture.  I won't trust the opinions of guys who are getting beat up trying to make a check.  Their judgement is too clouded.

Ken

[BCowan]

Ken

    Don't lump #2 in that category it is very playable day in and day out as are many other Championship Ross courses.  The average guy can break 90 at #2 and not lose a ball in the process!  It also can be set up for the best players in the world, that is the beauty of it!  Using creative means to make a course challenging vs digging water hazards all over the place! 

[Matthew Sander]

The hypocrisy is amazing.  This is a resort course, remember.  I truly believed you guys that you thought that courses should not be built or designed for one week.  I truly believed you guys that you favored golf courses where you could play the whole round with one ball.  I truly believed you guys when you said that only good courses are playable in all conditions.  I guess all those beliefs get suspended when one of GCA's own designs something that meets none of these standards.

When one of GCA's own builds a brutal, unplayable in wind, water-world, it's fine because we are showing the best in world what it's like to truly suffer.

It's okay when a sacred cow does it...just not when Rees, Jack or Fazio does it.  I got it.

Can't wait for the adoring public to get destroyed out there over the next 51 weeks. God bless the guy who gets the ball retrieving contact...as there will be thousands of brand new ProV1s in those waters in weeks.  Hopefully alligators aren't allergic to elastomer...or were going to have a crisis in our hands.

JR,

Really?  Pinehurst #2 prepped for a US Open is easy for resort guests??  How about Pebble Beach?  Stroll in the park for those resort guests?  Whistling Straits?  Chambers Bay?  Erin Hills?  Bethpage Black?  Black Wolf Run?  TPC Sawgrass?  Should I keep going?

Doral is set up tough for this week.  The world's best golfers are on it and that's how it's suppose to play.  What's it going to be like beyond this week?  Set up as a resort course or public course, just like all the other courses listed above are.

I haven't been to Doral so I can't fairly judge the architecture.  I won't trust the opinions of guys who are getting beat up trying to make a check.  Their judgement is too clouded.

Ken

I haven't been there either, so I can't judge the architecture. What I do question though, is taking a course with plenty of water in play, and significantly adding to it.

Many on GCA don't love the overuse of water and its absolute nature as a hazard. Obviously, there are many golfers and golf industry types that don't share that same preference.

[Nigel Islam]

I know Cory won in 95'.  I don't like greens getting that fast at the Open, less green space can be used.  Ken, i did complain about Doral prior to Friday's round!  No, that Open was criticized and it was the par 3 7th hole if i recall at Shinney.  Hypocrisy, please!  Retif was -4 when he won.  I prefer Ping pong over splash and splash

Retief might have putted better that week than I have ever seen anyone putt. That course was so difficult all week. I must admit I enjoyed watching it though

[Ken Fry]

Ken

    Don't lump #2 in that category it is very playable day in and day out as are many other Championship Ross courses.  The average guy can break 90 at #2 and not lose a ball in the process!  It also can be set up for the best players in the world, that is the beauty of it!  Using creative means to make a course challenging vs digging water hazards all over the place!

But Ben, it's the set up that's causing more of the problems.  JR feels it's the opposite.  #2 can be playable, but it doesn't take much to make it so difficult resort guests would go out and never come back!  That's true of any course.

I'm not a fan of water dictating strategy but that's what they have this weekend.  Adjust and play for it.  My point is too many guys in the field aren't adjusting their game to the conditions.  I just watched Russell Henley and Gary Woodland both dunk their tee shots on #9.  Both were bad shots.  The number of "balls in the water" stats is getting stale and misleading.  Not all shots are the result of tough bounces.

Ken

[Ryan Coles]

A few points:

Golfers, spectators and media all overstate the strength of wind as a matter of routine.

Variety is the spice of life. The same designer who's made this course unplayable in a wind, Designed a great course in Scotland that's impossibly easy WITHOUT any wind. One size does not fit all.

Firm and Fast doesn't work on courses with water.

Firm and Fast doesn't work unless you have the option of running the ball in.

All this butchering of courses should all be pointless. Don't blame designers or courses. It's the equipment stupid.

[Ken Fry]

What I do question though, is taking a course with plenty of water in play, and significantly adding to it.

Matt,

Is that true?  Did Hanse ADD water hazards to the old layout?  I know some areas were "enhanced" but wasn't aware of more water being added.

Ken

[Bill Brightly]

For those of you criticizing the re-design:

1. If you have not watched these flyovers which show the changes and the old lines, I strongly encourage you to do so.
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-front-9-then-and-now/

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-back-9-then-and-now/

2. There can be no denying that much more width was added, playing options increased, and excellent tree removal was accomplished.

3. The architect seems to have fulfilled the owner's marching orders: make a course that presents US Open-like challenges to the world's best players. Don't worry if the course is probably too hard for the average golfer, people sleep in their cars for the chance to play Bethpage Black from the wrong set of tees; Doral's tee sheet will be filled with golfers anxious to play where the pros play.

[BCowan]

Ken

    Don't lump #2 in that category it is very playable day in and day out as are many other Championship Ross courses.  The average guy can break 90 at #2 and not lose a ball in the process!  It also can be set up for the best players in the world, that is the beauty of it!  Using creative means to make a course challenging vs digging water hazards all over the place!

But Ben, it's the set up that's causing more of the problems.  JR feels it's the opposite.  #2 can be playable, but it doesn't take much to make it so difficult resort guests would go out and never come back!  That's true of any course.

I'm not a fan of water dictating strategy but that's what they have this weekend.  Adjust and play for it.  My point is too many guys in the field aren't adjusting their game to the conditions.  I just watched Russell Henley and Gary Woodland both dunk their tee shots on #9.  Both were bad shots.  The number of "balls in the water" stats is getting stale and misleading.  Not all shots are the result of tough bounces.

Ken

    Ken, the difference is a 10 handi playing Doral is prob going to lose 2-3 balls a round.  Not the case at #2.  The problem is more courses will be built with water due to people thinking it is the only way to make a difficult golf course.  Bad shots at #2 don't go in the water, but are penalized.  Hence Ross's modo of trying not to use water on more than 3 holes, if only modern archies would do this.  I love that Kingsley has no water on it!  Look at Muirfield Village putting water in on 16, basically copying 16 at ANGC, just like he did on #12 for the most part.  ''And the Current fashion sets the pace'', unfortunately. 

[BCowan]

For those of you criticizing the re-design:

1. If you have not watched these flyovers which show the changes and the old lines, I strongly encourage you to do so.
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-front-9-then-and-now/

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-doral-back-9-then-and-now/

2. There can be no denying that much more width was added, playing options increased, and excellent tree removal was accomplished.

3. The architect seems to have fulfilled the owner's marching orders: make a course that presents US Open-like challenges to the world's best players. Don't worry if the course is probably too hard for the average golfer, people sleep in their cars for the chance to play Bethpage Black from the wrong set of tees; Doral's tee sheet will be filled with golfers anxious to play where the pros play.

Bill, people are going to sleep in their car to play a US Open track that is affordable in New York, that is a given.  Of course Doral's sheet will be filled they host a PGA tour event and did a big renovation.  Was Bethpage as packed prior to renovation?  Yes he did add width, did he add hazards?  Will adding of hazards effect more future courses adding them to try and be like Doral?  Were bunkers added?  If a pro tourney didn't exist there, would people like loosing 3 balls a round?  My definition of strategic, which has many meanings would be multiple lines off a tee shot (TOC) without water being the penalty on 12 holes. 

[Matthew Sander]

What I do question though, is taking a course with plenty of water in play, and significantly adding to it.

Matt,

Is that true?  Did Hanse ADD water hazards to the old layout?  I know some areas were "enhanced" but wasn't aware of more water being added.

Ken

I don't have time to dig it up now, but I remember reading that water used to come into play on X number of holes and now it is on play on Y number of holes (with Y being a considerably larger number). I think the lake in play on 15 and 16 was greatly expanded as it wasn't directly in play before. New hazards may not have been added, but the use of water in the design was increased.

[jeffwarne]

What I do question though, is taking a course with plenty of water in play, and significantly adding to it.

Matt,

Is that true?  Did Hanse ADD water hazards to the old layout?  I know some areas were "enhanced" but wasn't aware of more water being added.

Ken

Ken,
he moved several greens to water that was already there. #1,#2 a bit, #7, 14 a bit, 15,16
so 4 holes a lot and 2 a bit
8,9,and 10 moved greens nut net effect about the same, except tee shot on 10 is wetter
For the most part the water was there just way out of play, though it was moved around a bit

[Tim Martin]

Ken

    Don't lump #2 in that category it is very playable day in and day out as are many other Championship Ross courses.  The average guy can break 90 at #2 and not lose a ball in the process!  It also can be set up for the best players in the world, that is the beauty of it!  Using creative means to make a course challenging vs digging water hazards all over the place!

But Ben, it's the set up that's causing more of the problems.  JR feels it's the opposite.  #2 can be playable, but it doesn't take much to make it so difficult resort guests would go out and never come back!  That's true of any course.

I'm not a fan of water dictating strategy but that's what they have this weekend.  Adjust and play for it.  My point is too many guys in the field aren't adjusting their game to the conditions.  I just watched Russell Henley and Gary Woodland both dunk their tee shots on #9.  Both were bad shots.  The number of "balls in the water" stats is getting stale and misleading.  Not all shots are the result of tough bounces.

Ken

What is so compelling about watching the tournament is these guys play at such a high level that it almost appeared that they didn't believe their own eyes and continued to play the same type of shots while somehow expecting a different result. Bad shots garner bad results regardless of architectural design.