[Mark Saltzman]

and I think that's part of what makes them so good.

I can't count the number of times that I've played a short par-4 that is 290 yards from the member's tees (not drivable for most) and has its key strategic feature requiring a carry of 250 yards (not carry-able for most).

At Barnbougle Dunes, the 4th and 12th have carries of only 220 yards from the second from back tees to carry the main trouble.  For most golfers playing 6500 yard courses this is a very realistic carry yardage and will tempt them into taking on the challenge.  Successful carries on the bold line also mean a likely putt for eagle.  Failure to execute can quickly turn the hole into a wipe. 

Similarly, the 14th at Lost Farm is only a 230 yard carry, straight downhill, over a bunker but requiring the golfer to flirt with lost ball territory to the right.  Once again, the possibility of eagle will have many golfers making dangerous decisions.

I say well done to Renaissance and C&C for building truly drivable par-4s.  The holes are better for it, and more interesting for 99% of people that play them, even if they can driven by a pro with a long-iron.

[David_Elvins]

Mark,

I think the wind helps in that the 'short' carry distances are not always able to be carried, even by scratch markers, saving the holes from ridicule of being a push over for low markers.  

The other thing I like is that the short fours at BD and LF  hold up really well as 'drive and pitch' holes meaning they are interesting holes in a variety of winds for a variety of golfers.  

the 2nd at st andrews beach is in the same boat, IMO.  Wind and variety makes a great hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I am not sure I've ever built a par-4 under 300 yards in the U.S.  There have been at least a couple of times where we built a great hole from 280 or 290, but the client wanted another tee at 320 yards [or even 350].

In Australia, we built four such holes in the space of a year -- the two at Barnbougle plus the 2nd and 14th at St. Andrews Beach -- and I could not be happier with each of them.

As David says, in a location where the wind never blows, they would be far less interesting because you'd know every day whether you could make the carry or not; but in those two spots, you have to recalculate every round based on the wind.

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom,

You can still play St Andrews 14 off the original back tee - I did it a few weeks ago and think it's an even better hole with the extra 30 yards.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wait a sec, aren't both those holes at BD uphill? (I recall kickplates but still.)

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