[RussBaribault]

I wanted to get some thoughts from GCAer’s on something. While I have never played PGA National Champions Course, it is easy to see from a golfer’s perspective how it’s a great tour stop because of its difficulty and how the course requires players to make shots. It’s a shot maker’s course. Conversely, and again I have never played the course, it does not look like a course with a lot of architectural imagination.

I find the difference perspectives fascinating and wanted to see what others thought.

If anyone has played the course (since it's public) and thinks I am mistaken, let me knwo as well.

[Rob Curtiss]

I played the course last November and did not really think much of it.
I would never pay the price they normally ask , but I got a really good deal through an auction.
The bear trap was really tough from the tee box we played -as far back as they would let us.

Actually 15 -18 are good holes, but all I remember thinking was the Pros should go really eat this place up.

The guys I played with loved it, so I guess its in the eye of the beholder.

[Matthew Sander]

Below are two threads where a former GCAer tried his darnedest to defend PGA National against the naysayers...


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46601.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43473.0.html

[Ben Kodadek]

I played the course last November and did not really think much of it.

Actually 15 -18 are good holes, but all I remember thinking was the Pros should go really eat this place up.

Florida golf in November and March are two entirely different animals. 

[Garland Bayley]

I saw a little bit on TV today. That's not golf, it's splash ball even for the pros. The telecast was gleefully counting the number of balls the best players in the world were hitting into the water.

To anyone thinking of taking up the game it must look like a really stupid game. The best in the world take objects that the average guy has to buy and hit them in the water even though they are trying not too.

For the game to thrive, we could do with a lot fewer PGA Nationals.

[jeffwarne]

I saw a little bit on TV today. That's not golf, it's splash ball even for the pros. The telecast was gleefully counting the number of balls the best players in the world were hitting into the water.

To anyone thinking of taking up the game it must look like a really stupid game. The best in the world take objects that the average guy has to buy and hit them in the water even though they are trying not too.

For the game to thrive, we could do with a lot fewer PGA Nationals.

I'm always amazed at the bashing Torrey Pines takes on this site, and the comparative little bashing PGA National takes.
I was at TP yesterday-didn't play but took a walk around a few holes in the light mist. Certainly a beautiful place that looks quite playable for the rank and file.
I played PGA National many years ago in The Finals of the National Club Pro and I couldn't get out of there fast enough.
It looks worse now after yet another redesign-despite being the best course on the property.
I know which course between TP and PGA Natl I'd rather play and it's not the one in Florida

[Matthew Rose]

Two things bug me to no end about this course. One is that they play up the "Bear Trap" / Nicklaus thing, despite the fact that it's a Fazio course.

The other is that 15 and 17 are basically identical holes. I've looked at the routing and wonder why they didn't reverse 13, 14, and 15 and make them play counterclockwise instead. Then 15 would become 13 and play in the opposite direction with water on the left. 13 and 17 would become the two water par-threes, but at least you'd have them playing in opposite directions with opposite wind quarters and with the main hazards on the opposite sides. I would find that more interesting.

I can see why Jack likes the place.... if you fade the ball you're golden, and if you draw it, you're screwed.

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

Quit pretending that you buy golf balls. Golf is the only game besides marbles where you can end up with more balls than you started. If anything I am disgusted by the lift clean and place.

[Jeff Tang]

I've played PGA National and I can see why tour pros may like it. It's a very difficult course but I don't think it's tricked up. You just need to hit quality shots. Too much water in play for my taste and it seems like a lost ball is looming on nearly every hole.  Not fun to me but others may enjoy the challenge.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played the course last November and did not really think much of it.

Actually 15 -18 are good holes, but all I remember thinking was the Pros should go really eat this place up.

Florida golf in November and March are two entirely different animals. 

How so ?

[Paul Gray]

It's a sign of where things have gone so horrendously wrong when you hear a commentator say "He's hit that really well because that was awkward. He might not have even been able to see the very bottom of the flag there from 220 yards." 

Seemingly we move one step closer to holding golf tournaments on driving ranges. Then again, if humps and hollows are now being removed at TOC because of such thinking then maybe we shouldn't ever be surprised. 

[jeffwarne]

Seemingly we move one step closer to holding golf tournaments on driving ranges. Then again, if humps and hollows are now being removed at TOC because of such thinking then maybe we shouldn't ever be surprised. 

+1

[Kalen Braley]

I didn't want to start a new thread, so thought I'd give this one some smelling salts.

After watching a few hours of coverage this weekend, is the PGA National Champions course the least desirable PGA tour stop from the perspective of tuning in to see the course?  Between the encroaching housing, water everywhere, and difficult shot requirements where its water on one side and insanely difficult recovery from the other, I can't think of a more loathsome venue on tour...

P.S.  Even Torrey has the terrific views and ocean side setting. 

[Peter Flory]

The other is that 15 and 17 are basically identical holes.

I don't see any similarity at all...


17 has 9 tee positions and 15 only has a handful. 

And if you compare them to number 5, you have tremendous variety (the water is on the left on this one, which is very clever).  Also, on 5, there is more water to the right.  Any ball off the cart path could potentially go in there, so beginning players have to really guard against the shank. 

[Matt_Cohn]

I don't see any similarity at all...

Presumably that's tongue in cheek, but—


I would assume they never reversed the direction of that triangle because you'd then have 3 holes with water left and houses right and that's not a good combo for the houses.

[Joe Bausch]

It is a very challenging course.  And when the wind is blowing, look out! 


Photos from my visit 2 days after the tourney in 2015:


http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PGANatlChampion/index.html

[jeffwarne]

They were 1 swing away from identifying the best 305th ranked player in the world on the heels of identifying the 161st last year.
and 15 and 17 ARE the same hole(though kudos today for at least having different yardages and pins-for once)
 (I said on Sirius this morning that the players don't actually play the 17th they just play 2 on 15 and relax in a lounge for 15 minutes after completing the water laden unique joy that is 16, in prepping for rinse (literally) and repeat on 18)


Ironically, I was actually having defend St Andrews against this POS from my co-host who is from St Andrews! (making me think of the title of this thread [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67394.0.html[/size])

[Kalen Braley]

I couldn't figure the NBC analyst team just eating it up, like it was one of the greatest golf courses in the world and amazing aka challenging.


The USGA should save themselves the aggravation of finding new sites every year for the Open.  Just show up in June with no additional fuss or muss and the course with summer heat/humidity will certainly "Defend Par"

[jeffwarne]

I couldn't figure the NBC analyst team just eating it up, like it was one of the greatest golf courses in the world and amazing aka challenging.


The USGA should save themselves the aggravation of finding new sites every year for the Open.  Just show up in June with no additional fuss or muss and the course with summer heat/humidity will certainly "Defend Par"

two excellent points.
They would cut over to the "Bear Trap" and you knew it wasn't live, and that that player was going to hit in the water...


Even Jack had to temper their drooling a bit by mentioning they had cut par to 70.
He also mentioned the course was unforgiving.


The best are all the social media comments about how this course shows there's not a "distance problem".
Just not sure how chopping shots off par and having 17 lakes and 36 sets of OB stakes(and cool brisk weather) to reach an arbitrary scoring number can justify 30 years of scale changing inaction resulting in glorification and even normalization of such dog tracks, which routinely bring us random leaderboards with the line between good and Fu%$#ed so fine.

[John Kirk]

I watched the tournament yesterday.
I thought it was astounding that Tommy Fleetwood and his caddie talked themselves into playing a fade into the 18th green, reasoning the right to left wind would hold the shot more or less on line.  This decision was  made immediately after Brendan Steele tried the exact same thing and lost it right into the water.  Fleetwood needed a birdie to get into a playoff, but it seems he was trying for eagle to win, and the margin of error for the selected shot was really small.  Not only that, Fleetwood has a most reliable draw that he had played beautifully all week long.
I enjoyed the tournament.  The kid Sung-Jae Im played a gutty round.

[JESII]

PGA National is my perfect solution to the whole roll-back debate.


Have a dozen or two courses across the country that host the Tour and leave the rest alone.


The golf is always entertaining and I'll call bullshit on anyone claiming they can appreciate architectural nuance on TV...

[Kalen Braley]

Just not sure how chopping shots off par and having 17 lakes and 36 sets of OB stakes(and cool brisk weather) to reach an arbitrary scoring number can justify 30 years of scale changing inaction resulting in glorification and even normalization of such dog tracks, which routinely bring us random leaderboards with the line between good and Fu%$#ed so fine.

Jeff,

That last bit at the end of your comment is a great point.  I think its great to have a handful of holes where precision is not just nice to have, but mandatory.  But hole after hole after hole of brutal and unrelenting shot requirements where a shot lands just a few feet apart and are rewarded/punished so differently is not my idea of good architecture.

I'm reminded of a thread Tom started a few years back where he said "The paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture".  I recall there was a few different takeaways on that thread, including that consistently rewarding or punishing fairly was a fools errand of sorts, but PGA National seems to take the extreme opposite by randomly doling out hugely different verdicts on nearly identical shots.

[Jim Sherma]

As I was watching the tournament I was thinking of some of the conversations on here where and how Broadie's ideas of golf as a linear programming problem, coupled with Barzeski's "Lowest Score Wins" ideas of "optimal" strategy, intersects with PGA National's architecture. Is it the case that the landing areas are smaller than the dispersion patterns of the required shots? It certainly appeared that some of the decision making issues had to do with there being no "good" side to miss on. Is this also what drives the difficulty of Augusta National's approach shots as well as Butler National's?

[jeffwarne]

The golf is always entertaining and I'll call bullshit on anyone claiming they can appreciate architectural nuance on TV...

Jim,
So you don't enjoy TOC, Rivierra or ANGC on TV?
Of course it helps I've walked and played all 3 multiple times, but besides ANGC, I was introduced to the others by TV(and or books/magazines).
I don't really know what architectural nuance is, but (to me) water and OB on every hole has zero nuance and is a piss poor excuse for thoughtful architecture and enjoyable golf-both as a player and a spectator.
As far as this being a substitute for a rollback, as a fan of watching the elite play golf, i strongly disagree.
While I think I get where you are coming from (don't bastardize our courses for elite events-which we agree on)..I happen to feel there is a simpler solution which involves altering what has changed, rather than being forced to develop a taste for unimaginative "absolutely hit it here" dog tracks.

[Terry Lavin]

They were 1 swing away from identifying the best 305th ranked player in the world on the heels of identifying the 161st last year.
and 15 and 17 ARE the same hole(though kudos today for at least having different yardages and pins-for once)
 (I said on Sirius this morning that the players don't actually play the 17th they just play 2 on 15 and relax in a lounge for 15 minutes after completing the water laden unique joy that is 16, in prepping for rinse (literally) and repeat on 18)


Ironically, I was actually having defend St Andrews against this POS from my co-host who is from St Andrews! (making me think of the title of this thread [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67394.0.html[/size])

Best GCA/PGA combo platter post ever! 


Watching yesterday made me think it was the final round of the US Open where they were identifying the luckiest player, rather than the best player. Having said that, it was good tv, if you like watching pain, suffering and failed execution.

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