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Chris Hans

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2014, 06:37:50 AM »
Typically you don't want to distrupt the sub-surface at all because of the great possibility for weed-seed to germinate.  It is much easier to create a native area without disturbing the sub-surface than it is to disrupt the sub-surface and fight off countless varieties of different weeds as a result. 
Establishing native areas that look and function as they should is very difficult.  Fescues are very slow to germinate but do very well with their high tolerance to drought, heat, compaction, acidic soils and insects.  Native areas have been and continue to be established on river banks, rock outcropping areas and large hill-sides.  Once established from seed, these areas can be thinned out by scalping the grass down to about 1 1/2" or so a few times a year for several years.  There is a post-emergent herbicide available called Sethoxydim which can be used to eradicate any and all unwanted grasses contaminating the area.  For the broad leaf weeds there is a post-emergent called Speedzone, among many others.  These herbicides are best applied on warmer, dry days and preferably after the area has been scalped down. 
Watering these areas, lightly, during establishment is important.  However, if the watering continues after establishment, the area will become overgrown with thick and heavy grass and weed varieties.  Fertilizer is unnecessary but some Supers will add some to the mix if using a hydro-seeder. 
Establishing native areas and getting them to look and play as they should requires time, cultural/chemical inputs and perhaps most importantly, patience from the membership. 


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2014, 09:17:45 AM »
Chris H,

but do not NATURAL areas contain some broad leafs?

Jon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2014, 09:37:08 AM »
Having worked at a club that spent a GREAT deal of time,money and effort growing in and maintaining fescue, I understand the effort involved.
and it's way more than the lay person may think, particularly in less than ideal soils.

Knowing the maintenance involved, it's very difficult for me to see how "native" grass, unless in the perfect soil (or lack thereof) is anything more than eye candy, with little or no place in the play areas of most golf courses, and that such areas are rarely native or natural, and contain grasses that harbor disease infected ticks
Mowing is a great herbicide and plays pretty good too.

Flame away
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCowan

Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2014, 09:50:46 AM »
Jeff

''Seeding rates(often the most overlooked/ erred of all)''

''I know of several courses here in the northeast that use a flail mower in the Spring and/or Fall to thin out the turf stand in native grass areas.  The flail mower is (typically) attached to a tractor, and the unit itself looks like a bunch of chain links attached to a rotary reel.  It is often used to cut the grass/brush on the sides of highways.''

''Mowing is a great herbicide and plays pretty good too.''- Agree.

I don't like it just for eye candy, I want to determine best way for it to be functional.  Also doing it right the first time, seeding rates, and cutting it 2 or 3 times a year if need be.  If it isn't done right, then it will get a bad name.  A couple cubic yards of sand can't be too expensive, but depends on location.

''We didn't start the fire''

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2014, 10:06:47 AM »
I don't like it just for eye candy, I want to determine best way for it to be functional.  Also doing it right the first time, seeding rates, and cutting it 2 or 3 times a year if need be.  If it isn't done right, then it will get a bad name.  A couple cubic yards of sand can't be too expensive, but depends on location.

Do you know of courses in the Midwest that are looking to go with fescue and native grasses?  I'm all in favor of fescue and native grasses, particularly if it replaces trees.  I might till up my own lawn and put in fine fescue. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2014, 10:11:43 AM »
Fescue is great if it is suited but native is what is already growing in the area that is not artificially maintained and not introduced. As such it will be suited to the soil and climate and so not be difficult to maintain though not always good for golf. For thin vegetation you have to ensure a low nutrient soil even if this means stripping away nutrient rich stuff first and then let what you seed establish itself at its own pace. Maybe not beautiful to begin with but effective in the long run.

Jon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2014, 10:16:30 AM »
I don't like it just for eye candy, I want to determine best way for it to be functional.  Also doing it right the first time, seeding rates, and cutting it 2 or 3 times a year if need be.  If it isn't done right, then it will get a bad name.  A couple cubic yards of sand can't be too expensive, but depends on location.

  I might till up my own lawn and put in fine fescue. 

I anxiously wait for a report on the results of that ;D ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2014, 10:24:17 AM »
  I might till up my own lawn and put in fine fescue. 

I anxiously wait for a report on the results of that ;D ;D
[/quote]

It was a joke.  I'm a fan of fescue.  But does it work in climates like the Midwest that experience extremes of heat and cold?

BCowan

Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2014, 10:25:12 AM »
''Do you know of courses in the Midwest that are looking to go with fescue and native grasses''

I have a friend who plays at club that asked me to help him make recommendations to his board for tree removal and some fescue.  Also many clubs have added fescue. UofM has put a lot in the last 1 or 2 years.  It seems to be the new trend and I hope most courses do it right.  You should put fescue in your yard, highly recommend it.  
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 10:30:12 AM by BCowan »

BCowan

Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2014, 10:26:53 AM »
  I might till up my own lawn and put in fine fescue. 

I anxiously wait for a report on the results of that ;D ;D

It was a joke.  I'm a fan of fescue.  But does it work in climates like the Midwest that experience extremes of heat and cold?
[/quote]

Yeah it does, most modern built houses have fescue in their lawns, even where you live.  Fescue is deep rooted, what do you think is on the side of highways?

Russ Arbuthnot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2014, 10:41:43 AM »
...many clubs have added fescue. UofM has put a lot in the last 1 or 2 years. 
I'm glad you mentioned this because I wanted to pipe up as soon as I read this thread and say that UofM, when I played it in 2012, had some excellent fescue to the right of the first hole. But you can't see it yet in any of the map applications, so I was second guessing my memory. It was surprisingly playable given its knee-high length, and looked great. If you are looking for expertise in creating good fescue playing areas, I would definitely contact them if you haven't already.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2014, 11:06:26 AM »
  I might till up my own lawn and put in fine fescue. 

I anxiously wait for a report on the results of that ;D ;D

It was a joke.  I'm a fan of fescue.  But does it work in climates like the Midwest that experience extremes of heat and cold?

My lawn is a mix of Kentucky bluegrass and an aggressive strain of native crabgrass.

Yeah it does, most modern built houses have fescue in their lawns, even where you live.  Fescue is deep rooted, what do you think is on the side of highways?
[/quote]

Chris Hans

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2014, 12:56:06 PM »
Jon-  It depends how "natural" you want a natural area to look.  I personally can't stand weeds like clover and nutsedge.  I just assume spray it all out.  The club I was at in the Boston area had a par 3 that played partially over a wetland area.  Every now and then we would throw fescue seed and wild flower seed in it.  There were some ugly weeds too but it was not maintainable and for the most part, it was out of play. 

Chris Hans

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2014, 12:58:58 PM »
I have also seen large amounts of Little Blue Stem growing naturally under large pines at different courses throughout the Northeast.  The Blue Stem seems to do very well in low-light, highly acidic areas.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fescue/Native Maint.
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2014, 02:40:04 PM »
Chris,

I know what you mean about clover as the ball disappears and even if mown it is back at ball losing height inside a day. I suppose ugly is in the eye of the beholder but I do all I can to reduce the docks but leave most of the thistles which I find quite attractive. Last year we had some white thistle and quite a few stands growing up to 6 feet in height. I also think that UK golfers are much more tolerant of flowers in the roughs and fairways than maybe those in the US though I could be wrong.

Jon

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