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Mark Bourgeois

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New thread title: The PGA Tour Collusion Thread
« on: February 16, 2014, 06:47:28 PM »
Did Rose Mary Woods get that one, too?

Wanted to discuss Bubba's apparent agreement with Harman for Harman to hit his approach to the 72nd green prior to Bubba because, according to Kostis, if Bubba hit prior then the subsequent crowd movement could prove distracting to Harman. Who knows about camera angles but Bubba's ball looked away.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 07:40:20 PM by Mark Bourgeois »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 06:51:57 PM »
From overhead shot right after Harmon hit his drive, he looked to be away, at least to me.

You really think Kostis knows what he is talking about?
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Brad Klein

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 06:53:50 PM »
Is that a rule or a courtesy? It's done all the time to avoid a mad rush.

Brad
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JESII

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 06:55:30 PM »
It vanished right after I admitted to participating in this (unspoken) collusion myself in some tournaments...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 02:29:15 PM by Jim Sullivan »
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 07:00:16 PM »
Maybe we could get him to take a look on the KonicaMinolta BizHub Cam.

It's pretty much an unenforceable rule, at least given the pros' apparent use of uncodified Kabuki gestures. Which is to say, they looked at each other, nodded, and Harman went first. Like watching pit trading at the old NY Merc. Also, it's a bit of a "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" topic, but hey, somebody felt the need to stick the rule in the book, so...
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Dan Herrmann

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 07:01:24 PM »
Playing when you're not away isn't an issue in stroke play unless the player is deemed to have gained an advantage by doing so.

No harm, no foul in this case.
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 07:02:46 PM »
Yeah, Brad, they do putt out of turn at the end of tournaments pretty frequently, don't they? So there must be some sort of exception/local rule?
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JESII

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 07:11:44 PM »
On that shot, the advantage to be gained was Bubba's...which makes the order questionable...
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 07:19:09 PM »
In the thread I couldn't find, didn't we discuss this issue? I recall Chris Cupit making a few posts on the topic of collusion.
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JESII

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 07:59:58 PM »
I thought it was mostly about leaving your ball on the green (and near the hole) when it may benefit a playing competitor...which I saw probably 15 times today...

I don't remember any talk of approach shot collusion and can't imagine it happens often.
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Wade Whitehead

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 09:18:27 PM »
There's no penalty in stroke play for hitting out of turn.

WW
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Rees Milikin

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 09:54:46 PM »
Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on February 16, 2014, 07:00:16 PM
Maybe we could get him to take a look on the KonicaMinolta BizHub Cam.

Take a shot everytime this phrase it uttered.
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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 10:06:09 PM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on February 16, 2014, 07:11:44 PM
On that shot, the advantage to be gained was Bubba's...which makes the order questionable...

What was the advantage gained?
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JESII

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2014, 10:13:44 PM »
The flight in the air and reaction of the ball on the ground.

I say players won't mutually participate in this (even if unspoken) because, unlike the greenside collusion, the passive player would have the same benefit of observing the flight and bounce and would rarely not care enough to prefer giving instead of receiving that information.

Imagine a par 3 final hole and you have the honor and are two ahead of me...would you ever go first intentionally?
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2014, 10:17:23 PM »
Quote from: Wade Whitehead on February 16, 2014, 09:18:27 PM
There's no penalty in stroke play for hitting out of turn.

WW

But is there if competitors agree beforehand to play out of turn?
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john_stiles

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 10:22:37 PM »
" If however the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified. "

Seems what happened today is often done on tour, especially on the greens when the winning putt leads to everyone moving about and the crowd buzzing.

It is done mostly so one is not clearly disadvantaged.

Seems reasonable but might not be if windy on approach shots, or if on similar lines on the green.
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2014, 10:23:52 PM »
Jim, if Bubba is to ahead of you by two, I'm sure he is happy to hit first.

Pros play a different game. In your best ball game at your club, when you have a 10 foot birdie putt and your partner has a 20 ft par putt, you ask him to go first in case he might make it and give you the freedom to fire away with no fear of three putting. When the pros have this situation, they usually want the guy with the birdie putt to go first. They don't want him worrying about anything other then making the putt. They play a different game.

Bubba did not gain any advantage and his ball flight is nothing like Harmon's.

If they are both there and tied, side by side in the middle of the fwy on the 18th hole with a short iron in hand, they want to go first.
They play a different game with a different mindset.

You can't compare it to your home game.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 10:39:46 PM by Don_Mahaffey »
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jeffwarne

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2014, 10:41:21 PM »
Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on February 16, 2014, 07:02:46 PM
Yeah, Brad, they do putt out of turn at the end of tournaments pretty frequently, don't they? So there must be some sort of exception/local rule?

It isn't a rule in stroke play.
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JESII

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2014, 12:28:15 AM »
Don,

You're mistaken.
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2014, 03:38:34 PM »
Quote
What was the advantage gained?

I am not sure you have to gain an advantage!

I once played a match, where my opponent and I agreed to use a forward tee for one hole, because we simply couldn't put the ball in play from the designated tee. After losing two balls each from the back tee, we agreed to move forward and play the hole from there. It turns out we agreed to waive a rule, namely that of teeing it up in the correct place. There was no advantage gained by any of us and, since it was matchplay, no "field" involved, but apparently even then you still cannot agree to waive a rule. DQ for both players is the call.

Ulrich
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Chris Cupit

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Re: Where's the thread in which we discussed PGAT players' agreement to waive rules?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2014, 05:25:48 PM »
Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on February 16, 2014, 07:19:09 PM
In the thread I couldn't find, didn't we discuss this issue? I recall Chris Cupit making a few posts on the topic of collusion.

I did ;)

Quick summary--it happens.
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Mark Bourgeois

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Re: New thread title: The PGA Tour Collusion Thread
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 07:42:09 PM »
Did Sergio-Fowler pull a "good-good" on 7 green today and, if so, is that a violation of match play rules?
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Brian Potash

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Re: New thread title: The PGA Tour Collusion Thread
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2014, 07:51:04 PM »
On TV they said yes, Sergio offered his 6 footer vs Fowler 17 footer I believe.

Apparently Sergio felt bad about some prior delay he caused?

Announcers had all never seen such a thing.  Didn't make any mention of a rules violation.
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: New thread title: The PGA Tour Collusion Thread
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2014, 03:56:04 AM »
I think giving a putt is not a violation of the rules. You can do that and, I believe, you can do it conditionally. Let's say you're on the first tee and tell your opponent: "If your ball is closer than 3 feet on any hole today, you can consider it given". No foul.

While there certainly was an agreement between Sergio and Ricky, it was not one to break the rules. They couldn't agree to "let's play with two mulligans each today", but I believe they can agree to give certain putts.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 03:58:26 AM by Ulrich Mayring »
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Thomas Dai

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Re: New thread title: The PGA Tour Collusion Thread
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2014, 04:26:03 AM »
Give-give in matchplay - an example - Larry Nelson vrs Bernhard Langer, 18th hole Ryder Cup singles at Muirfield Village.
atb
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