Belvedere's and Lawsonia's being built we don't know about?

[BCowan]

I am tired of hearing about Trump and all the new Retail golf being drooled over!  Does anybody wish for more Belvedere's and Lawsonia's to be built?  Having not played either they are top on my list, and I kick myself for not playing Belvedere last fall on plugged greens. ''It was a wonderful, pleasant round of golf.  It's exactly the kind of course golf needs more of, but that no one is building.''-TD.  I agree completely with Tom.   They host annual hickory events and dress up throw back annually too.  It shows you don't have to be an elite club to honor tradition and preserve golf.  Tom Watson's is an honorary member and supposedly spends two weeks in Aug. there, so I guess he is okay with Doak 5's, why aren't others?  Green fees are $40-$80 for each course.

   Here are some nice old threads I came across.  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38280.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,330.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/the-golf-courses-at-lawsonia-links-course-wi-usa/

[BHoover]

I can tell you the reason they aren't being built--no one is putting up the capital to build them. Whether you like him or not, The Donald has the money and he's using it to buy and/or build golf courses. Same with Mike Keiser. If there's money to be made building Belvederes or Lawsonias, then someone would pony up the capital to do so. But if no one is, then I guess it tells you about the economic feasibility of those types of projects. Not saying I agree with it, but it's dictated by the free market.

Maybe the golf industry needs to lobby the federal government for a golf bailout???

[BCowan]

I have no issue with the Donald.  I am saying that this site is suppose to be ''word of mouth'', ''grass roots'' or ''non-mainstream thinking''!  I am not surprised GD or the Golf Channel promotes the Donald.  First of all I will disagree that there is a Free Market, it is very much controlled and fiat has given to Booms and busts, which some politically connected know how to take advantage of.  Look at pebble green fees prior to 71'.

    Wouldn't you think someone who is a GCAer would be more inclined to play a Belvedere over a Arcadia Bluffs?  Arcadia Bluffs is the magazine course promoted track.  My bet is a lot of people on here that would choose Arcadia over Belvedere and go for the eye candy.  I think more have to ask themselves if they search out courses that aren't covered by GD or the Golf Channel and seek those gems that exist.  There is money to be made with the Belvedere's and the Lawsonia's.  I think there are some of those courses being built and we don't promote them enough on this site IMHO! I wish Belvedere advertised their course more and more GCA promoting of it too!  Keiser should be praised for the chances he took with courses in the middle of no where and committing to building walking friendly courses in the modern age!  I just think there is too much focusing on Doak 8+ courses on here! Just my 2 cents

[BHoover]

There absolutely is a free market. How else do you explain the fee to play Pebble or #2 or TOC? The fee is what it is because people are willing to pay it. If the public does not want to pay a high fee, it will come down, which is precisely what has happened at Longaberger and many other courses. That is the definition of a free market.

I would love to see more good, architecturally interesting publics open up. Hell, I'd love to see Doak build something here in Ohio that I could play without having to beg my wife for permission to travel out of town. But unless someone sees a market for it, no one is going to put up the capital for it.

GCA promotion isn't enough. It's a niche. Unless the broader golfing public has an interest, the sexy options are going to win out. That's the market at work, whether we like it or not.

[Jason Thurman]

What do you mean by "Belvederes and Lawsonias"? What are the characteristics of those courses that you find desirable and don't see being built elsewhere?

Have you played Arcadia Bluffs? Why do you believe that Belvedere is more worthy of play from GCAers than Arcadia? I don't know much about it truthfully.

[BCowan]

Brian  

    Pebble, TOC, and #2 have all hosted majors and were built many moons ago! Longaberger was a mag course and I played once and thought it sucked!  Please it doesn't help being in the middle of no where and Ohio isn't actually pro jobs state.  Longaberger and the modern courses are extremely expensive to build due to high costs of permits (shoves smaller investors out).  To put Longaberger in the same sentence as the above mentioned is ridiculous.  Those above will always be successful.  You still can't explain why people in the late 60's weren't spending more than $25 to play pebble and #2 was really cheap as well.  80 years ago a group of members from one course or in the city would pool their money together and build another course.  With the banking system now a days that is harder to come by, and one could argue lack of leadership among this generation!  Not enough smaller scale ''Mike Keisers'' in the country!  The ones that are, need to be recognized more on this site IMO!  GCA should be promoting more gems!  We need to focus on niches and promote the overlooked non Doak 8 and 9's!

  Columbus does have a shortage of good public and affordable compared to Indy which is the same size to the west!  Your best bet would be to have Doak renovate BlackLick, and or a muni that keeps losing money.  There is no reason you cannot create a semi-private club like Belvedere in C-bus.  

  

[BCowan]

Jason

Lay of land courses, great green complexes, built for walking, reasonable green fees, played in 4 hours (vs 6 at Arcadia), embrace the history of golf, host hickory tourneys, and have a sense of respect for the game vs flavor of the decade.  Have no desire to play Arcadia!

[BHoover]

I certainly wasn't comparing Longaberger to Pebble or TOC (although I certainly don think it sucks). I offered it as an example of a course where the market dictates the price. And, yes, those other courses have hosted majors, and that is a factor in what the market will be to play those courses.

How do you suggest GCA or the golfing public promote all those non-Doak 8s and 9s that are supposedly out there (I don't speak Doak scale)? As I said, GCA is a niche. We can all go play Lawsonia tomorrow but it's still not going to mean the general public will prefer it over your average course in a place like Myrtle Beach. What's your solution?

As for building more of these types of places, what's the solution? There needs to be a feasible market for banks to provide the capital or for investors to get on board. Whether a course hosts a hickory tournament is not going to result in more of these types of places. It's a very small niche. And right or wrong, walking-only may work at places like Bandon, but the golfing public wants to ride.

We could keep going on and on about this. But unless there's a way to build a market for these types of places, it's going to b the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I'd love for clubs to be like Kingsley (no frills) more so than the stereotypical country club (lots of frills). But is there a market for that?

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Lay of land courses, great green complexes, built for walking, reasonable green fees, played in 4 hours (vs 6 at Arcadia), embrace the history of golf, host hickory tourneys, and have a sense of respect for the game vs flavor of the decade.

While I love everything about what you just wrote (and this may be a first and I cannot believe I just typed that), I am afraid there just might not be a market for that type of course experience today...

Can anyone estimate the market size of the following demographic? 

-golf architecture nerd;
-walking;
-hickory-toting golfer;
-and possesses the necessary resources – specifically, time and money.

Once you have that number in mind...

-How many that meet the above criteria live within the same MSA to have enough critical mass to support such an endeavor?
-Then subtract from that the number of people within that MSA who already belong/play at a course that satisfies the above requirements...

I am afraid to say, I can't imagine that number is very big - this is a niche market within a niche market within a market that is contracting...

[BHoover]

Chris makes my point. I think many, maybe most, of us would like to see courses that promote these types of things (personally, hickory does not interest me but i think the idea is cool). But unfortunately it's a very small niche market.

[Tom_Doak]

Personally I do not have a lot of interest in courses that promote hickory tournaments or any other form of nostalgia.  However, if the hickory game works on a course, one can extrapolate that it will also work well for the average golfer, who hits modern equipment like hickories.

Good golf courses like Belvedere or Lawsonia are not a niche market; there are lots of people who would love to play them.  There are not many such courses being built because in the modern era, developers assume you need to make a bigger p.r. splash than that.  It is probably also true.  Neither Belvedere nor Lawsonia is exactly raking in the money; they are managed to just get by, and that after starting from the advantage of not having to pay off the funds that were spent to build them 85 years ago.  [If you could get in that game from scratch, you, too, would spend less on bells and whistles; but instead you have to pay for your new course, and attract attention to it.]

Few of the modern courses brought into these discussions cost much to build, compared to today's norms.  However most of the ones we notice started with better pieces of property that were chosen to attract people.  CommonGround is a rare example of an association trying to promote good golf instead of profit from it, and it has been generally successful in its own local market.

[Jason Thurman]

Jason

Lay of land courses, great green complexes, built for walking, reasonable green fees, played in 4 hours (vs 6 at Arcadia), embrace the history of golf, host hickory tourneys, and have a sense of respect for the game vs flavor of the decade.  Have no desire to play Arcadia!

I wouldn't characterize Lawsonia as "lay of the land" architecture. It was an EXTREMELY expensive course to construct during its time, and is heavily engineered in appearance. That's a lot of its charm. I suspect if Langford and Moreau were working today, with the affordability of modern earthmoving, their work would be reviled here. They certainly weren't minimalists. I've also played some really long rounds at Lawsonia and some really fast ones. In most cases I would say that long rounds have more to do with the number and etiquette of players on the course than they do with the architectural features, outside of some really long and meandering residential routings or courses on severe terrain which are really a very small percentage of courses.

Still, aside from hosting of hickory tournaments which really has nothing to do with architecture, I don't see any real shortage of the courses that you're talking about relative to other types of new developments. In truth, there just aren't many courses being built of any kind right now. Of those that have been built in the last 15 years or so, though, a large percentage fit the criteria you've listed above and yet also receive plenty of love from magazines too. I guess I don't understand the issue you'd like this thread to explore.

In general, I'm questioning the economic principles you're using to frame this thread. There's the questionable example of Lawsonia as an affordably-constructed course. In another sentence you claim there is no such thing as a free market, and in the next you seem to insinuate that it's unethical for certain courses to charge exorbitant fees despite the fact that they appear to be set at market value. In one sentence you commend Mike Keiser's courses, and in the next you say we spend too much time discussing Doak 8+ courses. You also suggest that Columbus needs a Doak renovation to make its courses more affordable. While I love Doak's work as much as anyone, I can think of plenty of other architects whose price point tends to be more affordable. And while your idea that a community should come together and finance a course has a quaint and nostalgic charm, the reality is that the very free market whose existence you dispute makes that a really stupid investment in 2014, as it's just really hard for golf courses to make money.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Good golf courses like Belvedere or Lawsonia are not a niche market; there are lots of people who would love to play them.

Tom, golf courses aren't markets, rather they are products that service markets.  While I am not sure what your definition of "lots of people" is or how to quantify that, I would still contend that those who seek out places like Lawsonia and Belvedere for the experience they offer are a small subset within the general golfing population - thereby making them a product that services a niche market today.  

I think the most important word within you statement is "would" - which to me, if we intend to protect and grow this game we love, means we need to do a better job introducing people to this game, making it more fun, more sustainable, and more affordable.  I think these are all concepts you were onto early in the curve and something the rest of the industry is just coming around to...

[Jud_T]

If Lawsonia is a Doak 5 then I'm a big hitting scratch anorexic African-American fundamentalist Christian.

[BCowan]

''Can anyone estimate the market size of the following demographic?

-golf architecture nerd;
-walking;
-hickory-toting golfer;
-and possesses the necessary resources – specifically, time and money.''

    Chris, first off thanks for the compliment.  In regards to N. Michigan we know that there are about 14 million people within 6 hour drive of it.  I understand that numbers are important but not the only thing.  The other thing I forgot to mention was Belvedere members had the course from 10AM-Noon.  I personally have a small business and spend money on advertising, every time I have it has paid off.  I was given a couple of cd's to listen to in regards to marketing and I found them very beneficial.  Briefly what I learned was that if you open a mag. or phone book, or whatever source it is you see tons of platitudes.  Companies or business not differentiating themselves from others.  They tend to use the same ''popular'' or ''advertise to the masses'' type of attitude.  Also i unfortunately notice more of the people of my generation and younger (''talkin about my generation'') turning to carts.  Adult baby boomers I know that walk at their clubs vacation up in N Michigan.  They go play Arcadia Bluffs and they don't know about Belvedere style of courses.  I see upscale public courses advertised on billboards with the same ''platitudes'' as in Golf Digest''!  I believe in my gut through much experience observing golfers from muni's to elite clubs there is a lot of people that like traditional courses, 4 hr rounds, golf courses built for walking, and limited interest in Golf Arch (good enough).  Hickories which i have never played, spike my interest, but not the masses.  My point is that advertising has been geared to the masses, and if courses like Belvedere spent a little money advertising the attributes they have which are looked over by the marketeers they would do well, just my gut!  I remember when I subscribed to Links the write up of the Bandon course, Mr Keiser (high end retail) advertising something that wasn't the ''current fashion sets the pace''!  I know of courses making profits in these tough times and are managed very well in very small markets, not as wealthy as Charleviox, MI.  
  

[BCowan]

Jason

Lay of land courses, great green complexes, built for walking, reasonable green fees, played in 4 hours (vs 6 at Arcadia), embrace the history of golf, host hickory tourneys, and have a sense of respect for the game vs flavor of the decade.  Have no desire to play Arcadia!

I wouldn't characterize Lawsonia as "lay of the land" architecture. It was an EXTREMELY expensive course to construct during its time, and is heavily engineered in appearance.Really, like a TPC stadium course inflation adjusted?

 That's a lot of its charm. I suspect if Langford and Moreau were working today, with the affordability of modern earthmoving, their work would be reviled here. They certainly weren't minimalists. Lay of land, more natural.  Doesn't have to minimalist.

I've also played some really long rounds at Lawsonia and some really fast ones. In most cases I would say that long rounds have more to do with the number and etiquette of players on the course than they do with the architectural features, outside of some really long and meandering residential routings or courses on severe terrain which are really a very small percentage of courses.I like Belvedere's model better, restrict public to more afternoons.  People join semi to private clubs for pace of play issues too.  Usually faster at private clubs

Still, aside from hosting of hickory tournaments which really has nothing to do with architecture, I don't see any real shortage of the courses that you're talking about relative to other types of new developments. In truth, there just aren't many courses being built of any kind right now. The banking industry/permitting have made it only possible for deep pockets to risk spending compared to when lawsonia was built!

Of those that have been built in the last 15 years or so, though, a large percentage fit the criteria you've listed above and yet also receive plenty of love from magazines too. I guess I don't understand the issue you'd like this thread to explore.You said you only play your home track in Cinci, nice to know you have experience.  The GD top 10 public courses in Metro D, 90% of them are riding only!

In general, I'm questioning the economic principles you're using to frame this thread. There's the questionable example of Lawsonia as an affordably-constructed course. In another sentence you claim there is no such thing as a free market, and in the next you seem to insinuate that it's unethical for certain courses to charge exorbitant fees despite the fact that they appear to be set at market value. Way to spin what I said, I said Mr Keiser focuses on big time retail golfer, I am focusing on med. retail $50-$100 market.In one sentence you commend Mike Keiser's courses, and in the next you say we spend too much time discussing Doak 8+ courses. You also suggest that Columbus needs a Doak renovation to make its courses more affordable. Brian suggested Doak, I know there are more affordable.  While I love Doak's work as much as anyone, I can think of plenty of other architects whose price point tends to be more affordable. And while your idea that a community should come together and finance a course has a quaint and nostalgic charm, the reality is that the very free market whose existence you dispute makes that a really stupid investment in 2014, as it's just really hard for golf courses to make money.Actually one that makes a semi-private model with 4 traits suggested above can make it IMO.  It is cheaper to renovate existing sometimes than it is to start from scratch.

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, you've never played Belvedere or Arcadia Bluffs. Why are you so sure that people who play Arcadia Bluffs are making the wrong choice?

Do your marketing CDs tell you that Belvedere isn't advertising correctly, and that's why people are making such a terrible choice to play Arcadia? What does your small business do? Have you thought about consulting to golf courses on marketing?

[BCowan]

Ben, you've never played Belvedere or Arcadia Bluffs. Why are you so sure that people who play Arcadia Bluffs are making the wrong choice?Again, I never said people where wrong playing Arcadia Bluffs, where did I imply that?  I know through experience that there is a pretty good chance that I will like Belvedere through people's opinions I value, research I've done, and through photos (don't tell mucci)

Do your marketing CDs tell you that Belvedere isn't advertising correctly, and that's why people are making such a terrible choice to play Arcadia? I haven't seen Belvedere advertised, I am saying people who like what Belvedere offers don't know about the course!  I didn't till 1.5 years ago.  Never said it was a terrible choice, 8/10 people i talk to love Arcadia.
What does your small business do? Have you thought about consulting to golf courses on marketing?Yes, I have given it thought and talked to people that do it.

[Mike_Young]

some are being built....

[Brad Tufts]

Didn't we have only like 15 courses open in 2013?

When we have 100+ courses opening per year, and they all are the opposite of Belvedere (I have not played it) and Lawsonia (I have), then this might be a great question.

Recently, it only seems like very unique builders/owners are able to put forth the capital, land, etc. to make a new project possible.  I would say there are few Belvederes or Lawsonias being built at the moment only because "recession-proof" builders/owners are the type that produce a high-end product. 

Most able to build a course in 2013/2014 by their very nature are shooting for higher than a Belvedere or Lawsonia.

And as for that tiny niche we are referencing...isn't Keiser shooting for something like that in Wisconsin, and Keiser and our moderator in Cape Breton, and Mosaic in C. Florida?  Yes, they all require significant capital for travel and/or play....but you can't have it all.  Tom D. said it right that B and L do not have to still pay off their build costs, as that happened years ago.  B and L meet our requirements today as a result of decades of existence. 

It takes a great deal of money today for a developer to meet ALL of our GCA nerd needs!!!

[Mike_Young]

Didn't we have only like 15 courses open in 2013?

When we have 100+ courses opening per year, and they all are the opposite of Belvedere (I have not played it) and Lawsonia (I have), then this might be a great question.

Recently, it only seems like very unique builders/owners are able to put forth the capital, land, etc. to make a new project possible.  I would say there are few Belvederes or Lawsonias being built at the moment only because "recession-proof" builders/owners are the type that produce a high-end product. 

Most able to build a course in 2013/2014 by their very nature are shooting for higher than a Belvedere or Lawsonia.

And as for that tiny niche we are referencing...isn't Keiser shooting for something like that in Wisconsin, and Keiser and our moderator in Cape Breton, and Mosaic in C. Florida?  Yes, they all require significant capital for travel and/or play....but you can't have it all.  Tom D. said it right that B and L do not have to still pay off their build costs, as that happened years ago.  B and L meet our requirements today as a result of decades of existence. 

It takes a great deal of money today for a developer to meet ALL of our GCA nerd needs!!!

Brad,
Lawsonia or Belevedere would not be that expensive to build today on that type of land AND the clubhouses/ proshops would be in line also.  Some of those are being built...they just don't advertise nationally...and they have no RE element to afford such...cheers..

[John Kavanaugh]

Lawsonia is a shit hole that is only promoted because some Golfweek raters were proud of themselves for discovering a "hidden gem".  Congrats, it's like an anthropologist that found a dog bone in his yard and calls the Smithsonian.

[Mike_Young]

Lawsonia is a shit hole that is only promoted because some Golfweek raters were proud of themselves for discovering a "hidden gem".  Congrats, it's like an anthropologist that found a dog bone in his yard and calls the Smithsonian.

That happens all the time but it still would not cost that much to build....

[Steve_ Shaffer]

 Building a quality affordable public course in a major metro area  today may be left to municipalities or enlightened developers. I cite KBM's Lederach in the Philly 'burbs and Rustic Canyon in the Los Angeles area as examples.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/rustic-canyon-golf-course/


Lederach is a muni and was built by Lower Salford Twp:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24772.0.html

[Steve Lang]

   all those years… since arcadia opened… still haven't played it.. way too expensive, some day...

Regarding the Bel… consider its origins, and the group that built it ..








p.s. JC when is our window to play the Bel in Jul -Aug?