The New Third Hole at Dornoch

[Rich Goodale]

I was up in Dornoch on Tuesday/Wednesday, and amongst other things took a walk out to the remodeled 3rd hole to see how it looked on the ground compared to the plans.  I was hoping to play the hole, but noting the 30+ mile wind in the face and 35 degree F temperature, I wisely chose to walk.  As for the hole, from the back tee the changes are not completely obvious.  The 4 right side fairway bunkers seem to be in roughly the same place they were before, but if your memory kicks in you notice that they are now completely visible rather than only intimated, as they used to be.  Also, the left hand side of the fairway and light rough are now invisible due to gorse planted on that side.  The most effective strategic intent for the golfer of the original architect's (Old Tom's) design is preserved (i.e. "drive at the bunkers with a draw").  That the bunkers are now located 15-20 yards from where they used to be, making the hole more obviously a dogleg, enhances the golfer's perceived need to hit a strong draw to get to position A.

Walking down the you notice at about 200 yards two significant features.  For one, the hump that was in the middle of the fairway is now astride the left hand semi-rough. If you can only carry 200 yards a shot slightly left will end up in rougher rough and require an escape and then a pitch and a long putt to get a par.  If you carry it longer than 200 and go further left you will be well advised to hit a provisional ball from the tee, as the left hand side of the hole is now a newly planted gorse farm.  Observant players will remember the consequences of playing such a shot and will naturally gravitate to a more rightish shot in subsequent plays.  All that being said, the gorse plantations on the left only seem to extend to 280-90 yards, and I will not be surprised to see elite players (or those with more length than skill or sense) trying to take the long left line which might or might not give them some advantage, depending on the pin position du jour.

In the middle of the fairway, down at the 250 or so yards from the tee spot where most mortals will (hopefully) find their drive, not much has changed.  Plan and negotiate a 2nd shot taking into account the sharp L-R contours short of the green and you'll have 2 putts for a par.  Go for any pin with a lot of spin and proper line and length and you'll have a putt for birdie.  Do neither and you'll struggle for par (or even bogey).  Taking the rabbit line off the tee (short right/high wide and not very handsome), you have pretty much the same options as you did before (play the hole as a par 5).

The one significant issue I have with the hole is that moving the fairway bunkers to the right seems to have left a channel near the middle of the fairway which might inhibit poor drives from drifting into the bunkers.  Let's see how the ho;e plays when it is grown in and the ground is firm.

Finally, possible future changes?  I spent some time looking for the old (c 1980) 3rd tee, and while I couldn't find it, what I did find was a potentially great future tee 30 yards past and to the left of the 2nd green.  This tee would be elevated vs. dug-in (the current one) and would seem to not cause any health and safety problems, given that it would be angled significantly to the right, and the homes who have complained about the current tee, live on plots which would be angled sharply to the left (and completely safe) from this new tee.  It would be one helluva par-4 for for the elite players and a challenging reachable par-5 for the rest of us.  Maybe some day....

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

I remember seeing a wee gorse farm left of the tenth fairway at Rye and wondering to myself, "Who the hell would plant more gorse?"

From my one visit to Dornoch for three rounds, I recall that mountain of gorse left of 3 and I think 4.   I just can't imagine planting more. 

[Mark_F]

The 4 right side fairway bunkers seem to be in roughly the same place they were before, but if your memory kicks in you notice that they are now completely visible rather than only intimated, as they used to be.

Rich,

This would seem to be a rather significant difference, would it not?

[Rich Goodale]

Yes it is, Mark.

[David_Tepper]

"This would seem to be a rather significant difference, would it not?"

Mark -

To be clear, the old bunkers were filled in and new bunkers were built 15-20 yards further to the right (and also a little further down the fairway, I believe), as the first two-thirds of the fairway was moved to the right.

I don't see how the new bunkers being visible from the tee will make much of a difference (at least to me and how I play the hole ). Anyone who played the course more than once knew the old bunkers were there.

The biggest difference with the bunkers being visible is that you will now likely be able to see whether or not your tee shot has run into any of the bunkers before leaving the tee box.

DT        

P.S. It should be noted that, several decades ago when the tee box on #3 was on a higher level, the fairway bunkers must have visible from the tee. In that regard, the recent change has "restored" that aspect of the hole.  

[Niall C]

If I read Rich's comments correctly the biggest change might be that the contours don't feed into the new bunkers the way they did before, so the visibility or otherwise probably isn't the biggest issue anyway.

Question (possibly more relevant before the recent changes) - given the contours of the green, wouldn't the play for the really big boys be to play way out right over the bunkers to the returning fairway ? In other words, take the play right for the best approach dictum to its extreme.

If yes, is that still doable for these guys ?

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

If I read Rich's comments correctly the biggest change might be that the contours don't feed into the new bunkers the way they did before, so the visibility or otherwise probably isn't the biggest issue anyway.

Question (possibly more relevant before the recent changes) - given the contours of the green, wouldn't the play for the really big boys be to play way out right over the bunkers to the returning fairway ? In other words, take the play right for the best approach dictum to its extreme.

If yes, is that still doable for these guys ?

Niall

Good out of the box thinking, Niall, but the "returning" fairway is "Foxy", and there is a lot of rough to carry before you get there, and even if you did get there off the 3rd tee it's a humpty-bumpty place, and you actually would have a false front with a right center bunker ahead of you.  That being said, now that the 3rd fairway bunkers are closer to the 14th, the bombers might profitably launch over them from the 14th tee, givng themselves a surprisingly favo(u)rable approach shot to Foxy.  Not sure if Tom MacKenzaie (or even me) thought of that unforseen consequence though, until now....

Thanks

Rich

[Jon Wiggett]

If I read Rich's comments correctly the biggest change might be that the contours don't feed into the new bunkers the way they did before, so the visibility or otherwise probably isn't the biggest issue anyway.

Question (possibly more relevant before the recent changes) - given the contours of the green, wouldn't the play for the really big boys be to play way out right over the bunkers to the returning fairway ? In other words, take the play right for the best approach dictum to its extreme.

If yes, is that still doable for these guys ?

Niall

Good out of the box thinking, Niall, but the "returning" fairway is "Foxy", and there is a lot of rough to carry before you get there, and even if you did get there off the 3rd tee it's a humpty-bumpty place, and you actually would have a false front with a right center bunker ahead of you.  That being said, now that the 3rd fairway bunkers are closer to the 14th, the bombers might profitably launch over them from the 14th tee, givng themselves a surprisingly favo(u)rable approach shot to Foxy.  Not sure if Tom MacKenzaie (or even me) thought of that unforseen consequence though, until now....

Thanks

Rich

Rich,

I also wondered if moving the tee back up to the 2nd green area might be possible.

I will get up to Dornoch at the end of the month to have a look. As to this possible problem, I guess a line of white posts down the middle would solve it

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Good, John.  Let me know your thoughts.  As for the "in bounds out of bounds" idea between 3 and 14, from the 3rd tee it's a non-starter, but from the 14th tee it could be a problem.  20+ years ago with a persimmon Orlimar driver attempting to make contact with aTitlelst Professional and a severely powered fade/slice from the 14th tee I hit the 3rd fairway in the Carnegie Shield, nearly decapitating multil-Shield winner and legend Jimmy Miller from Brora.  He was amused.

I'll be back up there in April or May to test that theory....

Rich

[Jon Wiggett]

Good, John.  Let me know your thoughts.  As for the "in bounds out of bounds" idea between 3 and 14, from the 3rd tee it's a non-starter, but from the 14th tee it could be a problem.  20+ years ago with a persimmon Orlimar driver attempting to make contact with aTitlelst Professional and a severely powered fade/slice from the 14th tee I hit the 3rd fairway in the Carnegie Shield, nearly decapitating multil-Shield winner and legend Jimmy Miller from Brora.  He was amused.

I'll be back up there in April or May to test that theory....

Rich

Rich,

I see the error of my ways. Of course something as awful and artificial as white posts will not be the right way to go. Maybe a row of poplars or just some discreet 40 foot netting is the way to go.

But seriously, I am looking forward to seeing the new look 3rd.

Jon

[ChipOat]

Rich,

I hear you about the channel that "takes the bunkers out of play" for a poor drive whereas a better tee shot might, in fact, find one of those hazards.  While golf was never intended to be fair, let us limit that to the rub of the green and not include any design features which reward something inferior and may punish a better play.

However, absent the channel, does the hole now REQUIRE a strong draw off the tee to find the fairway?  While I am a big fan of a hole that calls for an optimal shape for a shot, I have never liked any hole where only one type of shot will work.  It seems to me in this case that, while more difficult to bring off, a straight ball or a fade should be do-able even if not the percentage play.  On lush American parkland courses this is not such a big deal as the ball won't roll so far when it lands.  However, on the British and Irish links, and the few U.S. courses where "firm and fast" really does matter (e.g. NGLA since about 2000), the contours of the ground in the landing area can create problems for anything except THE perfectly shaped draw or fade.

This doesn't happen often enough to be one of my pet peeves, but I don't like it when I see it.

My big concern about Merion's #14 at this year's U.S. Open was that, if the tee markers were far enough to the left, the straight line off the tee box was ACROSS the fairway directly towards the ugly stuff.  Of course, it was hoped that the fairways would be firm and fast - which, by the weekend, they were pretty close.  Bottom line = ONLY a draw would really work.  Anything moving left-to-right or going straight had no chance of staying in the fairway.  Fortunately, the tee markers were placed on the right side towards the clubhouse all four days, so it wasn't an issue (to me, anyway).

What say you about "the new"#3 at RDGC?

[Rich Goodale]

Good, John.  Let me know your thoughts.  As for the "in bounds out of bounds" idea between 3 and 14, from the 3rd tee it's a non-starter, but from the 14th tee it could be a problem.  20+ years ago with a persimmon Orlimar driver attempting to make contact with aTitlelst Professional and a severely powered fade/slice from the 14th tee I hit the 3rd fairway in the Carnegie Shield, nearly decapitating multil-Shield winner and legend Jimmy Miller from Brora.  He was amused.

I'll be back up there in April or May to test that theory....

Rich

Jon

When I was asked to give advice I suggested a row of Leilanie (sic) trees in front of the protestors house......

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

I hear you about the channel that "takes the bunkers out of play" for a poor drive whereas a better tee shot might, in fact, find one of those hazards.  While golf was never intended to be fair, let us limit that to the rub of the green and not include any design features which reward something inferior and may punish a better play.

However, absent the channel, does the hole now REQUIRE a strong draw off the tee to find the fairway?  While I am a big fan of a hole that calls for an optimal shape for a shot, I have never liked any hole where only one type of shot will work.  It seems to me in this case that, while more difficult to bring off, a straight ball or a fade should be do-able even if not the percentage play.  On lush American parkland courses this is not such a big deal as the ball won't roll so far when it lands.  However, on the British and Irish links, and the few U.S. courses where "firm and fast" really does matter (e.g. NGLA since about 2000), the contours of the ground in the landing area can create problems for anything except THE perfectly shaped draw or fade.

This doesn't happen often enough to be one of my pet peeves, but I don't like it when I see it.

My big concern about Merion's #14 at this year's U.S. Open was that, if the tee markers were far enough to the left, the straight line off the tee box was ACROSS the fairway directly towards the ugly stuff.  Of course, it was hoped that the fairways would be firm and fast - which, by the weekend, they were pretty close.  Bottom line = ONLY a draw would really work.  Anything moving left-to-right or going straight had no chance of staying in the fairway.  Fortunately, the tee markers were placed on the right side towards the clubhouse all four days, so it wasn't an issue (to me, anyway).

What say you about "the new"#3 at RDGC?

Good to hear from you Chip

"I say ye John Dickerson!" (1776)

As for the "channel" it sits where the bunkers used to be and then rises up to the new bunkers.  If the course is fast and firm, nae problemo.  If is it not, there will be a lot of slightly wayward drives ending up in the channel.

As for tee shot requirements, either strong draw (good player) or weak cut (rabbits).  Good-Average player (8-15 HCP) gets bunkered or short sided 7 times out of 10  unless he hits his rescue club off the tee.

In general, most players won't notice anything.

Let me know when you next plan to cross the pond.

Rich

[David_Tepper]

For anyone who missed the comments of Tom Mackenzie, who did the re-design work on the hole:

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Mackenzierebuilt-third-at-Royal-Dornoch-will-reopen-in-March/3022/Default.aspx#.UwJSvM7wo1I

[Jon Wiggett]

Good, John.  Let me know your thoughts.  As for the "in bounds out of bounds" idea between 3 and 14, from the 3rd tee it's a non-starter, but from the 14th tee it could be a problem.  20+ years ago with a persimmon Orlimar driver attempting to make contact with aTitlelst Professional and a severely powered fade/slice from the 14th tee I hit the 3rd fairway in the Carnegie Shield, nearly decapitating multil-Shield winner and legend Jimmy Miller from Brora.  He was amused.

I'll be back up there in April or May to test that theory....

Rich

Jon

When I was asked to give advice I suggested a row of Leilanie (sic) trees in front of the protestors house......

Bet the owners are not Scottish Rich as if they were it is almost a dead certainty they would have already planted a mini forest around the house which has struck me as a bit of a Scottish fetish to live in a wood.

Jon

[David_Tepper]

"Question (possibly more relevant before the recent changes) - given the contours of the green, wouldn't the play for the really big boys be to play way out right over the bunkers to the returning fairway ? In other words, take the play right for the best approach dictum to its extreme."


Rich & Niall -

I find the notion of anyone deliberately playing their tee shot off #3 out on to the 14th fairway rather farfetched. Aside from the fact that it would take a mighty blow to reach the 14th fairway, playing from the 14th fairway into the 3rd green would be a totally blind shot, as the 14th  fairway sits at least 6' to 8' feet below the 3rd fairway and green. I cannot imagine how any advantage is gained playing from there.

Anyone long enough to even contemplate driving right on to the 14th fairway is likely long enough to attempt driving down the left side and cutting off the dogleg. Doing that successfully would leave a wedge or short-iron into the green.   

DT

[Rich Goodale]

"Question (possibly more relevant before the recent changes) - given the contours of the green, wouldn't the play for the really big boys be to play way out right over the bunkers to the returning fairway ? In other words, take the play right for the best approach dictum to its extreme."


Rich & Niall -

I find the notion of anyone deliberately playing their tee shot off #3 out on to the 14th fairway rather farfetched. Aside from the fact that it would take a mighty blow to reach the 14th fairway, playing from the 14th fairway into the 3rd green would be a totally blind shot, as the 14th  fairway sits at least 6' to 8' feet below the 3rd fairway and green. I cannot imagine how any advantage is gained playing from there.

Anyone long enough to even contemplate driving right on to the 14th fairway is likely long enough to attempt driving down the left side and cutting off the dogleg. Doing that successfully would leave a wedge or short-iron into the green.   

DT

Thanks for your thoughts, David

It was too cold and windy and out of the box for me to even think of looking at that 3rd fairway alternatrive route to the 4th green last week, but:

--as I mentioned above, I've been there before, with 1980's balls and equipment, from the back tees, and it is both feasible and attractive
--one of the best Dornoch (and Scottish) golfers of the early 80's once told me that regardless of where your drive is, always play to the right of the green on your second shot for the best results.  Try it--you'll like it!
--the new 3rd fairway incorporates an ample bail-out area short and right of the bunkers (from the 3rd tree) for all of us rabbits.  For the tigers, IF the new bunkers on the 3rd are comfortably carryable from the 14th tee, any good drive (and tigers do not hit too many bad drives) will feed down from the slopes on the 3rd fairway to that 3rd hole bail out area (or even into the dreaded "channel"), leaving a shortish approch shot to 14, into the significant R-L slope of that green.

Again, when we get there in the Spring, we shall see....

All the best

Rich

[David_Tepper]

Rich -

I was commenting strictly upon playing the 3rd hole via the 14th fairway. I can certainly see the wisdom of playing approach shots to the right side of the 3rd green, as anything left and short kicks dead right of the green.

Playing the 14th hole via the 3rd fairway is an entirely different concept. Since there is no way I could hit a drive high enough or long enough off the 14th tee to reach the 3rd fairway within any reasonable striking distance of the 14th green, it is a concept I have no need to contemplate further.

I will be in Dornoch May 9 to June 7. Hope to see you there.

DT   

[Mike Leveille]

Rich:

Thanks for the report.  I am anxious to make it back to Dornoch in July and see the changes first hand.

In the meantime, I am curious as to the expected time period until the new grass on the 3rd fairway (sodded presumably) will start to play like the fairway grass elsewhere on the course.  Just not sure how long it takes, in the cool climate of the Highlands, for sodded grass to blend together and start playing like a normal fairway.  Would you expect this to blend in by summer or be one of those things that takes a full year?

Thanks, and if you are in Dornoch the first part of July, would love to get together for a round.

Mike

[Rich Goodale]

Mike

The grass was growing in very nicely when I walked on it.  It is a bit greener than the old turf, but I expect it to be blending in nicely in a month or two if and when we get some warmish weather.  A for Dornoch in earlyJuly, I'll be in the US up until July 3, so it might be difficult.  Keep me informed and enjoy.

Rich

[David_Tepper]

I have recently heard from sources I believe credible that the changes to #3 are being well received by the local members. The new location of the bunkers down the right side of the fairway brings them more into play for the bigger hitters. The shorter hitters will still have a long way to go to reach the green. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Well, I had a look at the new look third on Wednesday evening and have to say it does look good. Unfortunately my camara decided to stop working so no photos

I also had a look at potential tee positions at the back of the second green and there is a good possibility to do this. In my opinion it would give a good view of the fairway and not endanger the properties on the left.

Jon

[Steve Salmen]

I would one day love to see the Walker Cup played at Dornoch.  I have thought of ways to increase the length of the course.  How do you think #3 would play from the 18th tee?  It's quite a spectacular view due to the elevation, however, it added about 50 yards pretty much directly behind the tee.

[Niall C]

Steve

Its matchplay, so why worry about length ? Indeed would it not be better to shorten some of the holes to introduce elements of risk reward ?

Niall

[Steve Salmen]

Niall,

From the member tees, the course is about 6200 yards.  From the blue tees, the course can be stretched to about 6700 yards.  For top players, I don't know which holes you would shorten.  Play 15 from the member tees once or twice? Same for #5? A helping wind could make 17 driveable.  I suppose the only tee that I'd think to move up is #8 to tempt the players.   

Which hole would you have play shorter? Thoughts?