[Ryan Coles]

I'd hazard a guess and that it comes down to familiarity and a lack of exclusivity. If it was a new design or if it was difficult to gain access, people would hold it in higher esteem. They don't like the thought that 'anyone' prepared to pay can get on. The more exclusive, the greater the mystique.

[ChipRoyce]

PB is a great golfing experience, but (and know this will draw the Ire of PB fanboys), I don't think it is a great course.

PB is on incredible real estate, breathtaking views.

It has a number of world-class holes that take advantage of the proximity to the water and those views (holes: 8,9,10,17(?)).

I'll also concede that it has a few great holes that are quirky but IMHO are hidden gems: 3, 4, 16

However, it has a number of benign, uninteresting holes that take away from comparisons to the truly great courses.

(BTW - I'm waiting for someone to say 18 is a Great golf hole for its architectural merits).
Its an easy par from the back tees but at best a challenging birdie hole for the pros).

Chip,

I always thought that 18 was an easy hole until I played it, after which, I came to a different conclusion.

Exactly who is it easy for ?

How many times have you played it ?

I've played it twice, par both times (and was a 12 hcp then, now 8 when my knee allows)

I think its easy for the GCA audience (assuming <16-18 handicap). Finding the fairway isn't hard - just don't end up behind the tree(s). Challenging the green on the 2nd shot is the best way to screw up the hole. A layup to 60-80 yards is quite easy and finding the green with your 3rd shot should give you a decent chance at birdie (esp if you watch every year that folks always tend to come up short and need a little extra club).

Again, its a hard eagle, perhaps birdie, but an easy par if you're paying attention to the hole and not the scenery.

[David Whitmer]

I have never played Pebble Beach, and I ask this because I honestly don't know. Yesterday I watched Jimmy Walker tee off on #6, aim way left, and hit it on what seems to be a huge hillside. The ball rolled off the hillside and came to rest next to the cart path, where he got a drop and hit his second in front of the green. He did not have to negotiate the cliff, the fairway, or the bunkers.

Was this option there for him because of the crowds and wet conditions? Or is this option there all the time? If (and I say "if," as I don't know) this option is there all the time, isn't that a serious design flaw in the 6th hole? I'm guessing the hillside is usually covered with higher grass that would make playing from it very tough, but that's an assumption on my part.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

You are correct, there is usually some rough on that hillside.
I have never seen it like it was this week before.
Under normal conditions if you get tangled in that left rough, the next shot does become rather challenging.

[JLahrman]

I have never played Pebble Beach, and I ask this because I honestly don't know. Yesterday I watched Jimmy Walker tee off on #6, aim way left, and hit it on what seems to be a huge hillside. The ball rolled off the hillside and came to rest next to the cart path, where he got a drop and hit his second in front of the green. He did not have to negotiate the cliff, the fairway, or the bunkers.

Was this option there for him because of the crowds and wet conditions? Or is this option there all the time? If (and I say "if," as I don't know) this option is there all the time, isn't that a serious design flaw in the 6th hole? I'm guessing the hillside is usually covered with higher grass that would make playing from it very tough, but that's an assumption on my part.

I'm not sure if there is a way to go for the green on that hole and not have to negotiate the cliff. Yes the angle was better for him over on the left, but with the ball below his feet that shot was begging to get lost left into the ocean. Not sure what it's like for every day play but I'd guess there is some moderate rough over there.

I've only played Pebble once, and #6 was easily my favorite hole. The better your drive, the more daunting that cliff is. And if you hit the fairway it is so easy to fan it right by trying to get a little extra height on your second shot. I hit a great drive on #6, so there was no way I could lay up on what is likely to be the only time I ever play the hole. So now I'm trying to get a 3-iron from a slightly downhill lie up a 40 foot cliff and NOT let it go ten feet right into the ocean. How I kept my second shot dry is a total mystery.

[Richard Hetzel]

That same 1978 $65, adjusted for inflation is approximately $233. PB definitely has the successful business model if they are getting twice that , or more and always have a full tee sheet!

I am sure by the time I get around to playing it, it will be in the $600 range.

I agree that the greens fee has nothing to do with a course's architectural merit (or the lack thereof), but if you walk away unastonished by the round, you will equate that course to a lack of "value" because you will naturally equate your golfing experience to what you paid.
Richard,

If you walk away, "unastonished by the round" you belong playing tennis, not golf.

Patrick,

I have yet to play it but I am sure it will be an enjoyable round.

[Keith Grande]

I think perhaps the price can be a turnoff to many, Pebble has been charging a very high fee for many years now, well above what other top courses had typically charged.

Holes 6,7,8,9,10, and 17 &18 are the standouts to me.  Besides being iconic and challenging, they are very fun holes to play.  The first few holes and the back nine stretch from 11-16 are weak spots.

Keith,

2, 3, 4 and 5 are "weak" ?  ?  ?

11-16 are "weak" ?  ?  ?

By what measure ?

Pat, I played Pebble in 2008.

The opening hole is nothing special.  As far as the par 5 2nd and 14th, I'd take Bethpage Black's par fives. Caveat, the 14th hole was cut lower right so the upper left hand side was not in play.  That ridge between left and right is very pronounced.  It doesn't show up as severe on tv.
The 3rd hole is somewhat interesting and the blind wedge to 4 green does have merit. I don't recall much of #5 other than the left slope of the terrain feeding into the green.

I found that many holes on the back nine did not require a ball in the fairway to play the hole effectively. Some fairly erratic shots on 11, 15 and 16 still wound up with an approach on or near the green.

Are the stretch of holes 6-10 and 17-18 so good that the rest pales in comparison? Perhaps.

I played Pasatiempo during that trip and I rated it higher overall.

So, while there are world class holes, I would say that there are many holes that are underwhelming.


Which holes are "underwhelming" and how are the "underwhelming" ?

How many times have you played Pebble Beach ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan,

How does TOC fit into that rule, or is it the exception ?

I'd hazard a guess and that it comes down to familiarity and a lack of exclusivity. If it was a new design or if it was difficult to gain access, people would hold it in higher esteem. They don't like the thought that 'anyone' prepared to pay can get on. The more exclusive, the greater the mystique.

[Patrick_Mucci]

(BTW - I'm waiting for someone to say 18 is a Great golf hole for its architectural merits).

OK, I'll say it, it's a great hole based on it's architectural merits

Its an easy par from the back tees but at best a challenging birdie hole for the pros.

An "easy par" ?
I'll open up,a betting window on the 18th tee and bet every golfer who comes through $ 1,000 on par.
With starting times in the summer from 7:00 to 3:00, at 8 minute intervals, that's about 28 golfers an hour, or around 224 golfers a day.
At a 3 to 1 ratio I should clear $ $ 112,000 a day, about $ 884,000 a week.

Hey, I might syndicate this, package and commoditize it and come out with an IPO and make millions next summer

I've played it twice, par both times (and was a 12 hcp then, now 8 when my knee allows)

I think its easy for the GCA audience (assuming <16-18 handicap). Finding the fairway isn't hard - just don't end up behind the tree(s).
What's that big blue thing that's to the left of that white thing that flanks the fairway ?
And what are those white poles you see every now and then along the entire right side of the fairway ?
And those tall green things with leaves on them ?
And that tiny green thingy that's very closely mown with those white things in front and to the side ?


Challenging the green on the 2nd shot is the best way to screw up the hole.

A layup to 60-80 yards is quite easy and finding the green with your 3rd shot should give you a decent chance at birdie (esp if you watch every year that folks always tend to come up short and need a little extra club).

Or, if you get above the hole and have to putt or chip downhill

Again, its a hard eagle, perhaps birdie, but an easy par if you're paying attention to the hole and not the scenery.

By scenery do you mean out of bounds, the Pacific Ocean, the Rocks, left flanking bunker, trees, greenside bunker and tiny green, not to mention the wind ?

[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

When I played there in August it was pretty good rough.

Not a good spot for your ball to end up as your stance is awkward with the ball below you and the cliff and the a Pacific looming large in front and to the right.

From that lie it's easy for the ball to get away from you on the right.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That same 1978 $65, adjusted for inflation is approximately $233. PB definitely has the successful business model if they are getting twice that , or more and always have a full tee sheet!

I am sure by the time I get around to playing it, it will be in the $600 range.

I agree that the greens fee has nothing to do with a course's architectural merit (or the lack thereof), but if you walk away unastonished by the round, you will equate that course to a lack of "value" because you will naturally equate your golfing experience to what you paid.
Richard,

If you walk away, "unastonished by the round" you belong playing tennis, not golf.

Patrick,

I have yet to play it but I am sure it will be an enjoyable round.

Richard,

I guarantee that you'll love the golf course........ Provided you tee off early

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I played Pebble in 2008.

The opening hole is nothing special.  

I don't disagree

As far as the par 5 2nd and 14th, I'd take Bethpage Black's par fives.

I could say the same thing about Pine Valley's par 5's, but I think you're selling #'s 2 and 14 short.
I think # 2 is a fabulous par 5 occurring early in the round, and # 14 is plenty challenging, a very unique par 5 with a tiny, elevated green
Caveat, the 14th hole was cut lower right so the upper left hand side was not in play.  That ridge between left and right is very pronounced.  It doesn't show up as severe on tv.

When the hole is cut on the upper left shelf, behind that bunker, that's one he'll of a hole.

The 3rd hole is somewhat interesting and the blind wedge to 4 green does have merit.

How about the drive on 4 ?
That's no easy ticket with disaster all around

I don't recall much of #5 other than the left slope of the terrain feeding into the green.

It's a good par 3 and when the wind is up it's a terrific par 3

I found that many holes on the back nine did not require a ball in the fairway to play the hole effectively.
Some fairly erratic shots on 11, 15 and 16 still wound up with an approach on or near the green.

On 11, position is everything on your tee shot and approach.
Miss on the wrong side and you've got trouble.

On 15 the tee shot isn't daunting but that green is.

16 offers plenty of trouble off the tee, on the approach and around the green

Are the stretch of holes 6-10 and 17-18 so good that the rest pales in comparison? Perhaps.

What other holes on ANY GOLF COURSE can match them ?
Of course the others pale by comparison, but does that mean that you denigrate good holes when found in the company of great holes ?

I played Pasatiempo during that trip and I rated it higher overall.

Hope to play Pasatiempo this summer

[/quote]
[/quote]

[Jason Thurman]

I agree with almost every word Pat and Michael have said.

If I don't limit it to a certain number of holes per course, Pebble might have 11 of my 18 favorite holes ever.

I really don't understand the criticisms against the course. As far as I can tell, the Pebble haters have an argument that hinges on two contradictory points. On one hand, they think the seaside holes are overrated because the scenery elevates the perceived quality of the holes. But on the other hand, when they want to suggest an inland hole stinks, the predominant reason is the lack of ocean views.

Of course, it's ridiculous to suggest that we ignore the ocean. It's a huge factor in what makes Pebble one of the most special places in the world, let alone the world of golf. But seaside or not, every hole at Pebble has strategy and the course as a whole provides as comprehensive a test of one's game as I've ever played. It's also one of the great sets of greens in golf.

I also suspect that some of Pebble's qualities are a bit out of vogue on this site at the moment. The bunkers aren't rugged. The greens are small and fiercely tilted instead of huge with interior contour. It doesn't necessarily fit into the post-modern minimalist movement. But if you look past the popular paradigm of the moment and just evaluate the playing qualities, routing, and strategy, you'll find one of the most exhilirating, delightfully challenging, and QUIRKY courses in the world, along with a whole side's worth of the best holes on the planet.

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

How does TOC fit into that rule, or is it the exception ?

I'd hazard a guess and that it comes down to familiarity and a lack of exclusivity. If it was a new design or if it was difficult to gain access, people would hold it in higher esteem. They don't like the thought that 'anyone' prepared to pay can get on. The more exclusive, the greater the mystique.

Little bit different over here. Aren't many courses that are totally private. I do think Muirfield gets additional kudos though due to its perceived exclusivity. Golfers are a strange bunch. They enjoy playing somewhere that a US Open champ or minor royal was turned away.

Re: The old course, I'm sure lots dislike it or come away underwhelmed after one visit. Not that they will say so. But golfers 'love that it belongs to the town'.

Is Cypress really THAT much better than Pebble?

[ChipRoyce]

(BTW - I'm waiting for someone to say 18 is a Great golf hole for its architectural merits).

OK, I'll say it, it's a great hole based on it's architectural merits

Its an easy par from the back tees but at best a challenging birdie hole for the pros.

An "easy par" ?
I'll open up,a betting window on the 18th tee and bet every golfer who comes through $ 1,000 on par.
With starting times in the summer from 7:00 to 3:00, at 8 minute intervals, that's about 28 golfers an hour, or around 224 golfers a day.
At a 3 to 1 ratio I should clear $ $ 112,000 a day, about $ 884,000 a week.

Hey, I might syndicate this, package and commoditize it and come out with an IPO and make millions next summer

I've played it twice, par both times (and was a 12 hcp then, now 8 when my knee allows)

I think its easy for the GCA audience (assuming <16-18 handicap). Finding the fairway isn't hard - just don't end up behind the tree(s).
What's that big blue thing that's to the left of that white thing that flanks the fairway ?
And what are those white poles you see every now and then along the entire right side of the fairway ?
And those tall green things with leaves on them ?
And that tiny green thingy that's very closely mown with those white things in front and to the side ?


Challenging the green on the 2nd shot is the best way to screw up the hole.

A layup to 60-80 yards is quite easy and finding the green with your 3rd shot should give you a decent chance at birdie (esp if you watch every year that folks always tend to come up short and need a little extra club).

Or, if you get above the hole and have to putt or chip downhill

Again, its a hard eagle, perhaps birdie, but an easy par if you're paying attention to the hole and not the scenery.

By scenery do you mean out of bounds, the Pacific Ocean, the Rocks, left flanking bunker, trees, greenside bunker and tiny green, not to mention the wind ?

[/quote]

Sure there are hazards on the hole, but I'm sorry - your course management has to be quite bad or lulled into submission by the surroundings to put yourself in trouble. Even if you catch the sand on your tee ball, there's so much room to the layup area for your 2nd.

The pro tees actually point you away from trouble, whereas the older tees bring the angle towards the water into play.

That fairway is so wide you can park a fleet of hundreds of classic automobiles on it... oh wait, they do... for the Concours each year

I don't have the time to post an screenshot from google earth, but again, the hole will smack down the greedy player who thinks the best way to score there is to challenge the edge of the hazard on both shots. While the safer lines to the right increase the distance, in today's age, the player who can get on in two can do so from the center right of the fairway.

[J_ Crisham]

Ryan,

How does TOC fit into that rule, or is it the exception ?

I'd hazard a guess and that it comes down to familiarity and a lack of exclusivity. If it was a new design or if it was difficult to gain access, people would hold it in higher esteem. They don't like the thought that 'anyone' prepared to pay can get on. The more exclusive, the greater the mystique.

Is Cypress really THAT much better than Pebble?

Yes

[Bill_McBride]

Ryan,

How does TOC fit into that rule, or is it the exception ?

I'd hazard a guess and that it comes down to familiarity and a lack of exclusivity. If it was a new design or if it was difficult to gain access, people would hold it in higher esteem. They don't like the thought that 'anyone' prepared to pay can get on. The more exclusive, the greater the mystique.

Is Cypress really THAT much better than Pebble?

Yes

YES

[Mike Hendren]

THAT much better?

I dunno.  Mike's Irrelelvant Match Play

1   All Square
2   All Square
3   All Square
4   Pebble 1 Up
5   Pebble 1 Up
6   Pebble 2 Up
7   Pebble 3 Up
8   Pebble 4 Up
9   Pebble 4 Up
10 Pebble 4 Up
11 Pebble 3 Up
12 Pebble 2 Up
13 Pebble 1 Up
14 Pebble 1 Up
15 All Square
16 Cypress Point 1 Up
17 All Square (Stupid Trees in Bunkers + Bogey Bias)
18 Pebble 1 Up

Disclaimer:  I've already been wrong twice today.

[Keith Grande]

Michael - glad to see you agree with my evaluation of holes 11-16 

[Mike Hendren]

Michael - glad to see you agree with my evaluation of holes 11-16 

So instead of being "the best 17 hole course in the world" you have it as "the best 6 hole course in the world?"

[J_ Crisham]

THAT much better?

I dunno.  Mike's Irrelelvant Match Play

1   All Square  Disagree
2   All Square Disagree
3   All Square Agree
4   Pebble 1 Up  Disagree
5   Pebble 1 Up  Disagree
6   Pebble 2 Up  Agree
7   Pebble 3 Up  Agree
8   Pebble 4 Up  Disagree
9   Pebble 4 Up  Disagree
10 Pebble 4 Up  Agree
11 Pebble 3 Up Agree
12 Pebble 2 Up  Agree
13 Pebble 1 Up  Agree
14 Pebble 1 Up  Disagree
15 All Square    Becoming a rout
16 Cypress Point 1 Up  Match Over
17 All Square (Stupid Trees in Bunkers + Bogey Bias)  CPC way better hole
18 Pebble 1 Up PB 18 is far superior to 18 CPC

Disclaimer:  I've already been wrong twice today.

  19th hole at CPC is much better as well!

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