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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2014, 09:07:50 AM »
Sean,

What "strictly English/Welsh matters" do you have in mind?  Do you have the same objection to London MPs voting on matters relating strictly to the North East, for instance?  I don't make it out to be black and white.  The only black and white view expressed so far is that of your friends who don't think Scots should be represented in a Westminster parliament that governs them.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2014, 09:27:07 AM »
We northerners have another word for secession...treason.  My three favorite Americans are the three Americans most responsible for stamping out the stain of southern rebellion--Lincoln, Grant and Sherman.

In all seriousness, if a group wants to break away from a union or federation, then I think that all citizens of the union or federation should be given the opportunity to vote on secession.  For example, if Vermont wanted to secede, then those of us in Ohio should be given the vote too.  Perhaps there are a few states we want to kick out of the union--ahem, Pennsylvania!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 09:29:50 AM by Brian Hoover »

BCowan

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2014, 09:34:40 AM »
 ''For example, if Vermont wanted to secede, then those of us in Ohio should be given the vote too.''

I love your sense of humor!   

Alfie Ward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2014, 10:28:17 AM »
Wow ! A subject dear to my heart and hardly a Scot in sight. Brian and Rich (Scottish wifey) being the exceptions.

So far, I see this debate in the usual misrepresentative manner in which it has been seen by the outside world for forty years now.

I fear this thread will only serve to bring out the nasty side of English Nationalism that none of us here on a golf website would wish to see. Although negative comments are always a bonus for the YES vote.  ;)


Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2014, 10:32:14 AM »
We northerners have another word for secession...treason.  My three favorite Americans are the three Americans most responsible for stamping out the stain of southern rebellion--Lincoln, Grant and Sherman.

In all seriousness, if a group wants to break away from a union or federation, then I think that all citizens of the union or federation should be given the opportunity to vote on secession.  For example, if Vermont wanted to secede, then those of us in Ohio should be given the vote too.  Perhaps there are a few states we want to kick out of the union--ahem, Pennsylvania!

Pennsylvania? I could see selling Texas back to Mexico, but Pennsylvania?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2014, 10:34:08 AM »
Sean,

it is about the voters of Scotland not citizens. If someone decides to leave a country, not live there and not pay any tax there why should they get to vote on matters there that do not effect them?

Alfie,

very helpful, is that it?

Jon

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2014, 10:49:49 AM »
Pennsylvania? I could see selling Texas back to Mexico, but Pennsylvania?

We want to kick all the Steelers fans out.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2014, 11:10:00 AM »
Alfie,

Like Jon I rather hope that your future contributions to the site will have a bit more substance to them.  FWIW, Jon is resident in Scotland and I, too, have a Scottish "wifey", though if you're going to post in a condescending fashion, perhaps such condescending language is better avoided.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Alfie Ward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2014, 11:21:35 AM »
Oops. Had posted a reply to Jon. But it didn't work.

Mark, what are you getting all frothy about. "Wifey" is condescending ?
Glad to hear you are both resident in Scotland and just as happy that both of you will have the vote.
Now the independence question is actually very simple. The peoples' of Scotland either want it - or they don't. Life will go on after the vote - either way. I just hope Scotland decides to continue its roll in the big world in a positive manner.

"Wifey" is condescending ?

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2014, 11:37:58 AM »
Alfie,

Yes, "wifey" is condescending, sorry.  I'm resident in Northumberland, not Scotland.  My wife is, however, a Scot.  I'm glad you think the independence question is simple.  Life could get so complicated if you staretd to worry about currencies, interest rates and all that sort of stuff.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

BCowan

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2014, 11:43:07 AM »
would the new Scotland have their own currency?  Is it tied to another National bank?  If so they would be less independent.  The worry of interest rates, would they not artificially keep them down for a Spend economy?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2014, 11:49:31 AM »
Colin

I'll be in Spain on a golfing holiday and have already registered for a postal vote. First time I have ever bothered to do this and I fully expect that the turnout will dwarf recent general election turnouts.

Niall

Alfie Ward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2014, 12:01:15 PM »
Mark,
No. "Wifey" is not condescending. Unless, of course, it happens to be in Northumberland ?
Actually, did you join our hickory event at Musselburgh many moons ago ?

Ben,
The currency thing is a big feather in the cap of the No campaigners at the moment. Alex Salmond needs to counter this argument sooner rather than later IMO - but I don't have the foggiest idea regarding currency.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2014, 12:06:05 PM »
Ben - Salmond is proposing a currency union with the remainder of the UK post independence. He hasn't really come up with a good explanation as to how this would benefit Scotland, as it would see monetary policy governed by a central bank over which it would have no control (and the governor of the Bank of England, which paradoxically is the UK's central bank, was about as scathing about this idea as someone in his position could reasonably be recently).

I agree with Alfie that this is probably the biggest hole in the Nationalists' case as things stand. I don't know for sure, but I imagine the SNP's original idea, dating back ten years or so, would have been to join the Euro, but the problems of that currency recently make it politically toxic.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2014, 12:11:36 PM »
Mark,
No. "Wifey" is not condescending. Unless, of course, it happens to be in Northumberland ?
My wife would strongly idsagree.
Quote
Actually, did you join our hickory event at Musselburgh many moons ago ?
Yes, that's right, I did.  I'm gutted to learn that Arbory BRae is no longer there, I'd love to have brought my boys along for a game.  Do you still do hickory golf at Musselburgh?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2014, 12:21:56 PM »
Sean,

it is about the voters of Scotland not citizens. If someone decides to leave a country, not live there and not pay any tax there why should they get to vote on matters there that do not effect them?

Jon

Disagree.  The consequences of independence could well decide if a Scot wants to move back to Scotland. 

Mark

For instance, what if a Scot MP was against the university tuition fees because it would then make less sense for the English to consider attending a Scottish uni?  This has nothing to do with Scotland, just as the SNP set their fees as free for Scots - nothing to do with the English - in theory anyway.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2014, 12:22:18 PM »
Possible name for a new Scottish currency - a "Forbes"

Lesser coinage to be Salmonds and Trumps.

1 Forbes = 1,000 Salmonds
1 Salmond = 1,000 Trumps

:) :) :)

atb

« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 12:23:57 PM by Thomas Dai »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2014, 12:28:52 PM »
Sean,

I don't understand your tuition fees argument.  You know that English students at Scottish universities do pay tuition fees, don't you?  I'm not saying that having two parliaments, one which governs all issues for most of the UK but not for Scotland and a seperate Scottish parliament for some devolved issues works well.  It doesn't.  I'm saying that it is stupid to suggest that the solution is to deprive Scots of representation on the national parliament.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2014, 12:45:14 PM »
Sean,

I don't understand your tuition fees argument.  You know that English students at Scottish universities do pay tuition fees, don't you?  I'm not saying that having two parliaments, one which governs all issues for most of the UK but not for Scotland and a seperate Scottish parliament for some devolved issues works well.  It doesn't.  I'm saying that it is stupid to suggest that the solution is to deprive Scots of representation on the national parliament.

Yes of course English students pay tuition in Scotland, but a great many of English students would never look at a Scottish university if the fees were free or much cheaper in England.  Hence, that leaves a lot more seats for Scots to attend Scottish unis.

Never said depriving anybody of a vote was a solution.  I said many English don't want to be in the Union with Scotland because they believe Scotland is more or less taking the mickey and that over the long run, Scotland will be a drain on the econom.  Remember, the oil deal is only a blip in the timeline.  Going back to the university example is a case in point.  To allow Euro students free tuition in Scotland and not English or Welsh is about as crazy as it gets.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2014, 12:51:39 PM »

Disagree.  The consequences of independence could well decide if a Scot wants to move back to Scotland. 

Ciao

Sean,

who becomes the US president effects my life directly and indirectly in so many ways. Following your logic I should have a vote on that. There is no such thing as a Scottish National/Citizen on Scottish voter. You may or may not agree with it or like it but it is what it is.

Alfie,

this has nothing to do with English nationalism and it is the lowest form of debate that you have entered into by using it.

What the yes campaign need to prove is that an independent Scotland can guarantee its own economy. That all that has been brought forward to date is either relying on either the Bank of England or the EU to guarantee it really is not convincing. What is even more worrying is that even the SNP do not believe that the Scottish economy is capable of it.

This is what most people see and despite a lot of people that really like the idea of independence it is what is causing the vast majority of these people to decide to vote to stay in the UK

Jon

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2014, 12:55:45 PM »
Sean,

English students have been going to Sccottish universities for decades as have Scottish students been going to English ones.  

And yes, you did suggest (or at least suggested that your "friends" suggested) that the Scots should not be represented in Westminster.  In the long run, Scotland is a drain on the economy.  That is not the same, however, as saying that the economy would be stronger without Scotland.  I imagine both sides will lose out if the Scots vote Yes.  Scotland is far from the biggest problem the UK economy has.  Sorting out our disproportionate and unhealthy reliance on London and its service sector should be a far higher priority.  As a manufacturer I'd think you'd get that.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Alfie Ward

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2014, 02:24:02 PM »
Quote
Actually, did you join our hickory event at Musselburgh many moons ago ?
Yes, that's right, I did.  I'm gutted to learn that Arbory BRae is no longer there, I'd love to have brought my boys along for a game.  Do you still do hickory golf at Musselburgh?

Mark. I thought so. Sorry. Hickory no more, but I'm sure Musselburgh still supply clubs. No disrespect to Mrs Pearce, but apologies anyway.


Jon, This thread, sooner or later, will have everything to do with English Nationalism ! That is why I'm reluctant to post because the entire issue has little to do with tearing apart / separation / border posts / hate / Scots being subsidy junkies etc etc....

I've been listening to this kind of crap for forty years now and you know what - Scotland's oil is still flowing.  :P

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2014, 02:48:09 PM »
Sean,

English students have been going to Sccottish universities for decades as have Scottish students been going to English ones.  

And yes, you did suggest (or at least suggested that your "friends" suggested) that the Scots should not be represented in Westminster.  In the long run, Scotland is a drain on the economy.  That is not the same, however, as saying that the economy would be stronger without Scotland.  I imagine both sides will lose out if the Scots vote Yes.  Scotland is far from the biggest problem the UK economy has.  Sorting out our disproportionate and unhealthy reliance on London and its service sector should be a far higher priority.  As a manufacturer I'd think you'd get that.

I have long given up on UK manufacturing.  The government nor Brits want to support it so its a lost cause.  I think it a huge loss to the economy and national security, but hey, the same thing is happening in the US.  So long as Brits and Yanks are willing to sacrifice the long term health of their economies because they can buy cheap t-shirts and trinkets then the writing is in the wall.  I fear by the time we figure out that our econonies should for the most part be a closed loop with its citiizens making and growing the goods it consumes it will be far too late.  

I agree, Britain is stronger with Scotland and the Union should stand, however, with devoultion on its long path its hard to convince many English (and with good reason) that the system can work with a quasi-independent Scotland.  

Jon

You don't get it.  You are not a citiizen of the US so your anaolgy is once again way off base.  Scots are citizens of the UK and Scotland is part of the UK.  Its not a hard issue to understand.  Besides, a ton of your "ex pats" are Scots paying tax which supports Scotland yet haven't lived there in yonks.  Additionally, some Scots may consider moving back if the country is economically healthy.  This vote has huge consequences for both these sections of Scot ex pats.

We fundamentally disagree on what nationality and citizenship confers upon people of a country so there is no point in carrying on.  

Alfie

I am not English.  That has nothing to do with the question at hand.  In fact, with the continued advance of devolution, it can be argued that the foks most affected are Brits without a home country nationality; effectively the elimination of "British" concept.  I know my father in law never believed in the idea of a British citizen.  He always thought that one should become either Welsh, English, Scottish or the northern variety of Irish (his term  :D)  to be a subject of the queen.  I am not sure how he proposed to do such.  All I can say is I could never feel as if I am a member of any home country.  In fact, it often feels odd to even be the vague "British" because there is so much I don't understand as any Englishman or whatever would.  I missed out on 35 years of British cultural indoctrination  :D so I will never completely understand the culture and society the way a native Brit would. Football is one issue for starters...and don't get me started on cricket.... ;).  In nearly all ways I am still fundamentally American and I think as such.  I mean, what other Brit supports the Wings and Tigers?  Lets just say I have to translate an awful lot of what I experience into an American experience to get a decent grip...and sometimes that simply can't be done.  Some things in this country, good and bad, are taken for granted, as in its not up for discussion; whereas in the States these same things are hotly debated...and vice versa.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2014, 03:02:30 PM »
It's a fascinating subject. It strikes me that, over the years as the EU moved towards broader and deeper integration, a parallel/countering movement has been the strengthening of separatist sentiments in Europe's sub-national regions (e.g. Lombardy, in Italy; Catalonia, in Spain), as if the European psyche, individual and collective, is split in two -- one side expansively wanting to side with and find a home in a borderless world, and the other side finding this all too much, and wanting instead to find its identity not in Europe or even nation-states, but in traditional (and much smaller) regions and subnationals.  I know that the case with Scotland and the UK is different in many ways (and that the UK's relationship with the EU is famously strained) -- but it does seem that in years to come, in Scotland and elsewhere, the globalization (of commerce and ideas etc) will produce an ever-stronger counter-balancing trend towards localization.

Peter

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2014, 04:11:53 PM »
Peter - I think you have hit the nail on the head here. There is definitely a desire for greater localisation within the context of the overall European framework. Scotland is a good example of this: I do not think the campaign for Scottish independence would have got this far if there weren't the 'safety net' of the EU sitting behind it.

The interesting thing is that there are different mindsets and motivations in regions across the EU. Umberto Bossi and the Northern League wanted northern Italy to have more freedom from the south because they felt it was holding them back economically. Catalonian nationalists resent the dominance of Castillian Spain, something that dates in its current form from Franco's days, but actually has hundreds of years of history (as far as they are concerned) - though Catalonia is also in many ways Spain's economic engine.

The guarantee of free trade that the EU provides - as well as its other powers - enables regionalism/localism to take hold. At the moment, the overwhelming majority of power within the EU lies with national governments. I would not necessarily assume this will be the case in the future.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.