A Conversation with Mike Keiser

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I woke up this morning to this article on my news feed and thought it could result in some good conversation here.  It's one of the best interviews of Keiser's that I've read...

http://www.golftripper.com/a-conversation-with-mike-keiser/

A couple of highlights...

"I thought that Coore/Crenshaw beat Doak at Streamsong Resort"

"This is an important question and here they are in order. I would guess most people will try to avoid putting them in order, but as a Golf Magazine ranker I’m accustomed to it.  1. National Golf Links 2. Pine Valley 3. Ballybunion Old 4. The Old Course 5. Dornoch  6. Oakmont 7. Shinnecock Hills 8. Cypress Point 9. Pebble Beach 10. Chicago Golf Club"

[Rob Curtiss]

Love the article. Thanks for sharing.

I dont know if I agree that Coore/Crenshaw is better 3 games out of 4 at Streamsong over Doak though.

[Terry Lavin]

I am an acknowledged Keiseraholic, so I got right on this link.  As always, he does a great job of informing the reader of his thought processes and also explains his source work quite well.  He's quite a guy and clearly one of the biggest visionaries in the game.  I found the following response very interesting:

"I’m convinced that so many golf courses have been built when the architect says, “Owner, what do you want?” And the owner really hasn’t thought about it. They will say, “Well I don’t know . . . something tough. Something really tough.” The architect might say “If you want a tournament there you’ll want it to be really tough” to which the owner will respond “Yeah, maybe we should make it the toughest”. For thirty five years we have built really tough golf courses. Are they fun to play? For most people – no. The owner sort of started it with his lack of direction and it was perpetuated by the fact that all the architects were PGA players. The owners could have built any kind of golf course they wanted and ended up going for something that is tough for for the pros. Enter Jack Nicklaus.

So to me, its very important to know what you want, and at Bandon Dunes I wanted Dornoch. Who can top Dornoch? We didn’t actually replicate it, but I think all four courses at Bandon Dunes are designed in the same spirit as Dornoch."

[Peter Pallotta]

Terry - reminds me of philosopher Alan Watts. Near the end of his life, he wrote that, after a lifetime of study and teaching and practice in the areas of eastern and western religions and mysticism, he'd come to the place where the only thing he knew and the only advice he could give was that people should "do what they like" - in his case, eat good bread and cheese, practice Chinese calligraphy, sit on a boat at sunset, drink wine, hang out with a woman he loved, and talk about life. Which is to say, it's amazing how few people, in any profession, can keep it as simple as Mr. K does -- i.e. people who know what they like, and then go do it.

Peter

[Jud_T]

I like this one:

"Frankly, to choose between those three even before looking at guys like Mike DeVries, Mike Nuzzo, Jim Urbina and Jay Blasi, is a very difficult decision."

[J_ Crisham]

Terry - reminds me of philosopher Alan Watts. Near the end of his life, he wrote that, after a lifetime of study and teaching and practice in the areas of eastern and western religions and mysticism, he'd come to the place where the only thing he knew and the only advice he could give was that people should "do what they like" - in his case, eat good bread and cheese, practice Chinese calligraphy, sit on a boat at sunset, drink wine, hang out with a woman he loved, and talk about life. Which is to say, it's amazing how few people, in any profession, can keep it as simple as Mr. K does -- i.e. people who know what they like, and then go do it.

Peter

+1

[Emile Bonfiglio]

He is a great person to talk with. I ran into him in at the bathroom of the Inn at BD and we had nice 10 minute conversation. My non GCA type buddies on the trip couldn't believe I would hang out in a restroom just to chat with someone.

[Jim Franklin]

Thanks for sharing. I don't agree with his Streamsong assessment but that's what makes the world go 'round. Sand Valley sounds pretty cool though.

[Jud_T]

Time to start the wagering on the designer for course #2....

[J_ Crisham]

Time to start the wagering on the designer for course #2....

Would be nice to see Wisconsin's own Jay Blasi get a crack at it. Hard to argue with his success at Chambers Bay and The Patriot.  Looking forward to seeing his reno work at Sentryworld this summer.

[Tom_Doak]

Time to start the wagering on the designer for course #2....

I'd be happy to participate in that.

[Greg Tallman]

Time to start the wagering on the designer for course #2....

I'd be happy to participate in that.

You're on... I have you for say, 1.5 million.

[Joel_Stewart]

"I thought that Coore/Crenshaw beat Doak at Streamsong Resort"

I had lunch with him and his sons at Streamsong.  We had a nice argument discussion between the two courses.  His quote to me was "C&C all the way".

It didn't surprise me that C&C was the choice for the course in Wisconsin.   I'm not sure if anyone has read his book but C&C and Keiser are joined at the hip.

He's an original investor and charter member at Sand Hills.  

If memory serves me, he wanted C&C at Bandon for the 1st course but there was a problem which I can't remember.  Either he didn't want to make Dick Youngscap mad or C&C were busy?

He's an investor at Lost Farm. They used C&C.

He became an investor in Cabot Links.  2nd course, C&C.

Now he's in Sand Valley and his choice, C&C.

[Kevin_D]

According to Dream Golf (which I literally just finished a few days ago), he didn't hire C&C for the first course at Bandon because he didn't want to appear to be copying Dick Youngscap.

Obviously they're a great choice, but don't quite see how someone can vastly prefer one of the Streamsong courses to the other.  Everyone I know who's played them (including me) might have a slight preference for the Red or Blue, but ultimately it's pretty close, and they're both fantastic and worth the drooling praise they receive here.

Hopefully Tom gets SV #2.  This is quite an exciting project.

[Michael George]

I would not read too much into his choice of Coore/Crenshaw for the first course.  

It is clear from all of his work that he likes Doak and Coore/Crenshaw more than any other architects in the world.  In Bandon, he gave Doak 2 and C & C 2 (if you count Preserve).  In Australia, he gives Doak 1 and C & C 1.   In Sand Valley, he gave C & C the first shot.  I would be shocked if he did not give Doak the 2nd shot.

I would love him to give others a shot, as he is a king maker in golf course architecture.  I would be willing to bet that just the mention of Urbina, Devries, Nuzzo and Biasi increase their opportunitites.  However, I understand why he goes back to that well.  C&C and Doak have delivered for him at every chance.  Why change?

Also, regarding his comment that he likes the C&C course at Streamsong better, I again don't think it means much.  By accounts that I have heard, the C & C site is more dramatic and varied.  When you are dealing with those 2 architects, I would venture to guess that the better site is always going to produce the more interesting golf course.  Would anyone be surprised if he privately felt that Pacific Dunes was better than Bandon Trails  ---- he would never say it when he owns the property and charges the same amount for each round at each course  ---- but people prefer courses over others.   I prefer Pacific Dunes to Bandon Trails....and still prefer Sand Hills to Pacific Dunes.  In fact, I don't know how I judge these things. 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

are C&C and Doak... and for that matter, Gil Hanse... the new Fazio, Nicklaus, etc. in terms of "brand recognition" to attract the more-than-casual retail golfer?  i think everyone on this board would be jazzed if Keiser brought other designers into the mix somewhere along the way (i.e. Blasi, DeVries, Nuzzo, Kyle Phillips, Keith Foster, among others), but would those names reverberate among the great unwashed quite the way the "Big 3" do now?  Does he need to stick w/ the Big 3 to make his new ventures work in a golf market that's evolved since Bandon Dunes Resort first opened?

[Don_Mahaffey]

I don't think he hires brands, I think he hires who he thinks does the best work.

[Tom_Doak]

I think Mike has pretty much proven that HE is the brand, by selling millions worth of memberships / partnerships in Sand Valley before he even decided who the architect would be.

For that matter, the same is true of many developers over the last 20 years ... everyone from Lyle Anderson to Herb Kohler to Mark Parsinen to Donald Trump.  Some hired different architects for each project to diffuse the credit ... others hired the same architect for 4 or more courses, but oddly, in a way, that minimizes the importance of the designer's name.

[Greg Tallman]

I think Mike has pretty much proven that HE is the brand, by selling millions worth of memberships / partnerships in Sand Valley before he even decided who the architect would be.

For that matter, the same is true of many developers over the last 20 years ... everyone from Lyle Anderson to Herb Kohler to Mark Parsinen to Donald Trump.  Some hired different architects for each project to diffuse the credit ... others hired the same architect for 4 or more courses, but oddly, in a way, that minimizes the importance of the designer's name.

Tom, Of those named isn't MP the only one where the course/architecture is the real star versus service and bells and whistles and such?

[Ian Andrew]

I like tournaments because they are good for golf – especially if they are on a links golf course. I’d love to have one at Bandon Dunes, but it is so remote that it’s unlikely. Cabot actually is being mentioned as a Canadian Open site, so that is a possibility.


The RBC takes the Open to Vancouver because it should, not because it wants to.
They don't have as strong a base out there and entertaining corporate customers is harder out West ... or out East for that matter too.
They would rather keep it in Toronto and Montreal exclusively if they could...

You need enough walk up potential, corporate support to make the event work "beyond the title sponsor's requirements".
It all sounds charming, but does anyone really think that its going to a remote town with few hotels and no large city close enough to support the event....

[Josh Tarble]

I do think Keiser has built his own "brand" so golfers know what they are getting when they go to one of his resorts.

But this is still a risk.  Building 2 or 3 courses in an already saturated market.  Doak or C&C are the only choice...besides their brand recognition, they build great courses and these have to be great courses, otherwise they will fail. 

I won't be shocked to see Doak get course #2 and then possibly branch out to a little less known architect for #3.  IF the first two are successful.

[Michael George]

I agree with Tom Doak that Keiser is his own brand.

My point, asking why he would change designers, is more in terms of "getting what you want".  Doak and C&C know him better than any designers.  When he tells them what he wants, the idea is clearly understood and things are not as easily lost in translation.

I don't think Keiser is worried about image from the designer he picks.  I think he is worried about "getting what he wants".

[BCowan]

''You need enough walk up potential, corporate support to make the event work "beyond the title sponsor's requirements".
It all sounds charming, but does anyone really think that its going to a remote town with few hotels and no large city close enough to support the event....''

 Ian

    I agree with you completely.  I caddied in the Woman's Canadian Open in Halifax,NS and I loved the town and the people.  Halifax is 4 hours from Inverness, so to have a Canadian Open seems ''Pie Eye in the Sky''.  Having a Canadian Amateur event would be great. 

SV

     There are 9.5 million people in Chicago and take into account SE Wisconsin on top of that.  I think SV is brilliant there are many Chicagoians i know that aren't members of Chicago area clubs due to the expense and they are retail golfers.  The other retail courses seem to be booked pretty solid and being able to buy prime land in Wisconsin with 30' dunes and great archies seems very smart.  Plus you are drawing from other neighboring states that don't have to hop on a plane!  Wisconsin seems like it will blow N Michigan out of the water with traditional courses in abundance accessible by the public!  I love Keiser's commitment to walking and proves that those are very sustainable models, not ''current fashion sets the pace''!