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Adrian_Stiff

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Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« on: January 14, 2014, 03:44:12 PM »
Where's Duncan?

I noticed today Reddish Vale joined Golf Now and I wondered if you knew.

I cant believe anyone would join Golf Now....you get a free BRS tee time system instead of paying the £1000 per year sub. in return you give GolfNow two tee times each day to sale and they keep the money  it basically means they advertise their two times amongst yours at a discount so pretty much undercut you!  150 signed up for it...I was wrong I said no decent club would do it...I found about 5 pretty good courses.

Duncan please tell me you were against it!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 04:18:10 PM »
Adrian,

I think many clubs will think that firstly they are giving away 2 greenfees they would never have had, get a booking system on top and hopefully a steady stream of new customers. Not sure how well it will work though.

Jon

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2014, 04:30:46 PM »
Yes that is the view of some they just cant see the problem.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Brent Hutto

Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2014, 04:43:08 PM »
Is it two tee times? Like eight green fees? Or just two green fees?

In an industry-wide race to the bottom it's not always prudent to be the last one joining the race.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 04:54:48 PM »
Brent - Its two tee times. What they do is advertise ALL your tee times but THEIR two are in there as the CHEAPIES...... so most people pick up the bargain times and perhaps you only start to earn on the third buy. Your real loss is perhaps EIGHT GREEN FEES.

One of things I noticed talking to golfers in asking how many different courses they have played and in the majority of cases they have played a lot/most courses just once. I think we all like to tick off as many as we can. So if someone is going to play your course ..why give it away.  

I am talking very commercially of course but its the only way you can be at the moment.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 05:08:11 PM »
Something must be really screwy in Manchester.  RV is laughably cheap at £16.  What I do know, is if courses reduce their fee for specials etc, that is defacto the green fee I am looking to pay regardless of a deal.  Golf is just like any other consumable product and I wait for those products to go one sale to their real price before I buy.  I don't have any answers for Reddish Vale, but it seems to me that reducing their prices to muni level is suicide.  It all starts with no membership fee.  It sends a signal to golfers that this course can be played cheaply.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2014, 10:24:16 AM »
bump
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2014, 04:30:56 PM »
Where's Duncan?

I noticed today Reddish Vale joined Golf Now and I wondered if you knew.

I cant believe anyone would join Golf Now....you get a free BRS tee time system instead of paying the £1000 per year sub. in return you give GolfNow two tee times each day to sale and they keep the money  it basically means they advertise their two times amongst yours at a discount so pretty much undercut you!  150 signed up for it...I was wrong I said no decent club would do it...I found about 5 pretty good courses.

Duncan please tell me you were against it!

This is the first I've heard of it.

We implemented the BRS tee-booking system a year ago and it has been a great success with members and visitors. It seems that BRS has been recently aquired by Golf Now and they are pushing this deal as a way of 'saving' clubs the outlay of their annual suscription to BRS.

I will not comment further until I have had a chance to discuss the full ramifications with our Secretary/Manager.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 12:55:54 AM »
Something must be really screwy in Manchester.  RV is laughably cheap at £16.  What I do know, is if courses reduce their fee for specials etc, that is defacto the green fee I am looking to pay regardless of a deal.  Golf is just like any other consumable product and I wait for those products to go one sale to their real price before I buy.  I don't have any answers for Reddish Vale, but it seems to me that reducing their prices to muni level is suicide.  It all starts with no membership fee.  It sends a signal to golfers that this course can be played cheaply.  

Ciao

The situation in the Manchester area is that golf can be played very cheaply indeed almost wherever you want. Casual golf is now almost entirely price-led and people will book where they can get the best deal. Supply and demand is driving prices ever lower and will continue to do so either until supply starts to disappear or demand increases. I wouldn't hold my breath for the latter.

My personal view, and one that I have argued at the club, is that we should put our green fees up to double the level that we are actually prepared to sell them at. Then we can offer 50% discounts with impunity at times when the course is quiet while limiting visitor interest at times popular with club members.

As Adrian rightly says in the County Card thread, a discount has to be of the order of 50% these days actually to drive customers in. If people think they are getting something for half price they will be happy. Better that that is half of £50 than half of £25. Most golfers I know are delighted to pay £25 to play 'a £50 course'.  The challenge for clubs is to sell themselves as '£50 courses'.

Unfortunately, an attitude common amongst many golfers who have never had to run a business is that 'a tenner is better than nothing'. That even occasionally making green fees £10 devalues the general perception of that course's worth in the marketplace to ten pounds is lost on most.



« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 02:39:25 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 03:29:17 AM »
Duncan

Yes, I recall the conversation with your Sec.  Part of the problem now for RV is its been cheap for some time now.  You aren't going to fool the locals with a sudden price hike and a price reduction at times unless you are trying to fool them.  Which means you must offer something more - usually a much better playing experience.  If I were RV I would would start rising the green fee maybe £7 a year in a 4-5 year plan to get near £50 proper.  I would also reintroduce a joining fee even if its £100 to start.  RV is one of the better courses around Manchester, but the club is not sending out that message.  Just go to your home page on the website.  Its terrible - the message is CHEAP, rather than quality. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 04:57:36 PM »
Duncan

Yes, I recall the conversation with your Sec.  Part of the problem now for RV is its been cheap for some time now.  You aren't going to fool the locals with a sudden price hike and a price reduction at times unless you are trying to fool them.  Which means you must offer something more - usually a much better playing experience.  If I were RV I would would start rising the green fee maybe £7 a year in a 4-5 year plan to get near £50 proper.  I would also reintroduce a joining fee even if its £100 to start.  RV is one of the better courses around Manchester, but the club is not sending out that message.  Just go to your home page on the website.  Its terrible - the message is CHEAP, rather than quality. 

Ciao

+1

Sorry to say it but a quick look at the website doesn't convince me I'm looking at the site of a £50 golf course. For me, you need to start by tarting up that site. Push the history a bit more and bump the green fee to, say, £36 with a well advertised twilight rate of £18. £18 for 18 holes on an Alister MacKenzie classic etc, etc, etc. Don't underestimate just how much people buy into all that. From there you can perhaps go to £40 and £20 respectively and so on and so forth. And just pay the £1,000 for the IT system and be done with it.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 05:08:12 PM »
I'm not sure the hawks who swoop on £18 greenfees care if its Alistair Mckenzie or Alistair Darling.

RV seems highly thought of though. If it is truly the best or near the best in the area, it should be priced accordingly.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 05:12:41 PM »
You perhaps miss the point slightly Ryan. They may not care who Alister MacKenzie is but they buy into it all the same. And in two or three years time that £18 could be £25, which is significantly better than £8 plus one year of free BRS.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

BCowan

Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 05:21:52 PM »
Paul

   I don't understand why they don't try and get some out of town London Golfers.  I am guessing golf is much more expensive in London and an out of town membership would be wise imo.  Aren't there a couple Dr Mack courses in Manchester that could pool there money and advertise in London? 

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 05:30:04 PM »
I don't think it's a problem to sell tee times at unpopular times for a much lower rate. Why not? Just make sure you do it yourself and keep control over it. Don't let others re-sell your tee times and make a profit off you.

We've had some courses here trying that "increase green fee, grant discount" scheme. A great way to scare off quality-oriented customers, who don't make an effort to scour about for discounts, but believe in fair money for fair services.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 05:34:52 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2014, 05:31:37 PM »
Ben its miles too far away from London. Britt's don't like travelling far.

They don't get the £8 by the way Golf Now get the, two tee times per day.

I agree the website makes the course seem cheap.

I agree hardly anyone knows the difference between MacKenzie and Darling... they do know Nicklaus, Faldo and Gary Player design great courses though and of course Robert Trent Jones who won the Open as an amateur.

Its going to be hard to right the wrongs that have been done at RV and it cant be done overnight, but I know from Duncan's other posts its grim up north and he is trying.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 05:34:53 PM »
I don't think it's a problem to sell tee times at unpopular times for a much lower rate. Why not? Just make sure you do it yourself and keep control over it. Don't let others re-sell your tee times and make a profit off you.

Ulrich
I think a twilight zone is ok, but only after 5.00 or when there are 4 hours of sun up left...never ever more. You are just robbing yourself.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2014, 05:57:22 PM »
I don't think that's true. Those who come and play twilight would play at a more convenient time, when they have to pay full, and in the process take someone else's spot.

Think about it: there are those, who can play at a certain time and only then. Make sure you have room for them right then, so you don't lose their business. And there are those, who are flexible - make them take the unpopular times, because no one else will.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2014, 06:11:27 PM »
I don't think that's true. Those who come and play twilight would play at a more convenient time, when they have to pay full, and in the process take someone else's spot.

Think about it: there are those, who can play at a certain time and only then. Make sure you have room for them right then, so you don't lose their business. And there are those, who are flexible - make them take the unpopular times, because no one else will.

Ulrich
Ulrich, I been in this business for nearly 40 years, if you make cheap times people will play in those times rather than play at normal rate. I study patterns of play. As soon as you go Half price Tuesdays you get some of Mondays players. The biggest rule to stick by is most visitors only play a golf course once so don't give away the goods. We call it making the mix, as soon as you alter one set of parameters another will alter. A twilight rate should largely involve not playing a full 18 holes or you might get the last couple in under near darkness. If you create so many discounted ways to play the course, that becomes the price, you really struggle to get £40 for a round of golf when you once sold it for £8. Your members notice too and that's the last people you want to upset. I would rather do 5,000 rounds at £40 than 10,000 rounds at £20, but someone will have just come out of university that learned about upspend and add ond.... £40 people up spend   £20 people head home straight afterwards.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2014, 06:36:26 PM »
Well, maybe your market is different from here. Members here will be upset, if guests play during peak times and get in their way. They won't mind them playing at off times and could care less how much they pay. Second, visitors who cannot get 18 holes in will feel cheated and never come back. Especially if they were held up by members, who don't care how many holes they get in.

Also, if what you say is true that visitors only play once and never come back again, then for sure they will not be flexible enough to make that discounted time. They'll have one day available, when they're in the region, and you have to get their business right then. Over here twilight rates are taken by locals and they are repeat customers.

Finally, from my own experience as someone, who likes to play different courses, but is not very flexible: often I call clubs and they are booked solid at the time I want to play, so they lose my business. I either keep calling other clubs, until someone accommodates me, or I just go play my home course or hit the range. All it takes for those clubs to not lose my business is move some of the more flexible players to off times.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2014, 06:43:16 PM »
Ulrich,

With the greatest of respect, I don't think you quite understand the nature of the British market. Adrian is exactly correct in what he says; if you sell at lower rates you have to be very careful how and when. Start offering too much and before you know it (and I really have heard this a thousand times) the public are moaning that the twilight rate doesn't start until midday in the winter and "we won't get a full round in." That's fine if you really are in the 'pile it high, sell it cheap' market but don't expect anything but abuse from your membership. Oh, and you'll need to budget for a top notch sales guy because otherwise they'll be out of the door in no time.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2014, 03:45:55 AM »
Well, maybe your market is different from here. Members here will be upset, if guests play during peak times and get in their way. They won't mind them playing at off times and could care less how much they pay. Second, visitors who cannot get 18 holes in will feel cheated and never come back. Especially if they were held up by members, who don't care how many holes they get in.

Also, if what you say is true that visitors only play once and never come back again, then for sure they will not be flexible enough to make that discounted time. They'll have one day available, when they're in the region, and you have to get their business right then. Over here twilight rates are taken by locals and they are repeat customers.

Finally, from my own experience as someone, who likes to play different courses, but is not very flexible: often I call clubs and they are booked solid at the time I want to play, so they lose my business. I either keep calling other clubs, until someone accommodates me, or I just go play my home course or hit the range. All it takes for those clubs to not lose my business is move some of the more flexible players to off times.

Ulrich
Ulrich - It is not a one size fits all with regard to visitors, much depends on where a course is lets say 'in the rankings' the bottom enders will feed off the novice and occasional golfers who are very price controlled. Some good players locally will want to tick that golf course off their list, many wont because of what they have heard, read or learned from the clubs website (a really important area). Courses with a bit of name (RV) will be on peoples wanted list, you will have people that will be put off by a low price (they think that its probably in crap condition) I know I would rather pay £2 for a steak beefburger than 25p for an economy burger...in truth they are probably the same, but it is thought patterns and they play a bit part in your secret marketing. People that are mad on golf often take others with them, the mad on golf brigade (most here) enthuse to others so a single sale might in reality be ten fold, a good experience and that ten fold increases.
The UK visitor patterns are that people will travel up to 60 minutes to play a good course and 90 minutes to play a very good course, exceptional courses are different and often involve travel and lodge cost. It is important to be high up in the county ratings, most travellers have incurred much cost in getting there, the principle is you would not drive to Manchester (150 miles from me) to play a cheap golf course, most from Bristol would think of somewhere like Mere if we were up that way thats how we have been educated. Reddish Vale's website looks a £20 course not a £50 course.

It is unlikely that this type of player will re-play that course or maybe again in 10 or 20 years....reason being there are more  to try.
Visitors will multi play courses up to 60 minutes with a stronger bias to nearest, those closer courses are more likely to benifit from twilight zone golf. Twilight rate at 50% off should represent 9 hole golf plus a tadd more, there should be no bleating that he only managed 17 holes.

Rack rate (Standard full price) should equal between 1/20th and 1/30th (but never more) the annual subscription outside of that balance represents; lower than (a very good course) higher than (a struggling course likely to lose it's members because occasional play offers better value). At a normal golf club, best times are premium for your membership, so if you allow large volumes of visitors it will affect your membership. Visitors should be accomodated if there is space and usually a the pattern is that your members play early times say up to 10.00 or 11.00 and then that is a 'unpopular time' for members, that unpopular time for a member is a popular time for a visitor who may have travelled 60-90 minutes, that person has conceeded the whole day to golf, so an 11.00 start is fine. There is a strong member play pattern after lunch and after work.

Winter rates when a UK course is not in so good condition can be discounted, though not to such an amount that you have mass play, it is dormant and needs rest, so you could invoke a situation wherby you take £10 and do £10 worth of damage.

Juniors need encouragement and discounts are fine, I think pro's, secretarys, captains, greenstaff all get courtesy, that should not be expected peak time weekends. The best discount of all should be a member bringing a guest to play and if you EVER EVER EVER create a back door where someone can play cheaper than the cost of a member bringing a guest then you have made the mix.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 03:53:29 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2014, 04:58:07 AM »
Ulrich, Adrian is right.  Most guys I know in clubs wouldn't same day travel more than 60-90 minutes each way for golf except for maybe a few times a year for special outings and the 60-90 minute deal would not be too often.  My rule of thumb is day tripping 5 hours there and back, but I think I am unusual.  As traffic worsens in England, I am becoming less and less inclined to push the envelop on weekdays and have started to want to visit clubs on weekends - especially Sunday when traffic is usually much better.  Even so, there are a lot of courses I would happily play again at full whack that are 4 hours there and back, but most I won't play more than once every 2, 3 or 5 years if I have to organize.  There are a lot of courses to play even for a discernng person such as me and most club golfers are no where near as discerning.  They are just looking for a day away from their club for a reasonable fee maybe 10 games a year.  Even then, many will be choosing courses of mates much of the time simply because its a good deal.  Also, green fees for the top echelon and nearby hangers have increased dramatically the past 20 years.  Its hard to justify forking out £75 and double that too many times in a year.     

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2014, 05:07:36 AM »
Adrian I totally agree that the cheapest way a non-member should ever be able to play is as the guest of a member, it is a member benefit as well. The fee should also be pitched at a level that assists a member in paying for his guest. Many decent clubs graduate the guest fee, certainly Sunningdale was once £20, £40 & £60. Brilliant for one guest but still it £40pp for three guests. Wentworth West was £90 last year, punchy for a member taking a friend but much cheaper and it's far less than the true cost of most of the members rounds!

Sean - I'm lucky to be a member of two very good clubs and now I won't play visitor golf bar one trip a year unless I am with a member or go to the likes of RAF on the county card. It's difficult to justify shelling out when I'm paying for two clubs and there's fortunately no shortage of people who want to play my clubs, so I'm rarely alone!!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 05:11:27 AM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reddish Vale joins Golf Now £8 Green Fees
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 08:57:11 AM »
Reddish Vale now has a website that looks like a top course IMO.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com