[Joe Bausch]

Perhaps the subject line could have been:  Golf Club Atlas v0.1

Thanks to John Y of the Tillinghast Association for this February 1924 article outlining thoughts Tilly has about a school for golf course architecture:

[Tom_Doak]

That's interesting, because as far as I know, no subsequent architect ever claimed to have worked with Tillinghast or to have been trained by Tillinghast.  He's one of the only famous architects whose lineage is a dead end.

[Joe Bausch]

From Phil Young:

You can tell Tom Doak that Tilly trained several fairly well-known architects and helped them start their own practices. For example, when his associate, Willard Wilkinson, wanted to go out on his own Tilly gave him the rest of the work and commission for three of his New Jersey projects to help him start out. These included Jumping Brook and Galloping Hills.

He also aided both Peter Lees and George Low when they desired to get into golf course design as both had worked for him in constructing courses before then.

[Ronald Montesano]

Did Tillinghast have involvement in the training of Alfred Tull? His name is on some of the Bethpage courses.

[Ian Andrew]

Ron,

Not sure how much this helps...

In 1924 Emmet hired Alfred Tull as a design associate.

In 1929 Tull was promoted to full partner of Emmet, Emmet and Tull. The firm included his son Devereux Emmet Jr. who worked with the firm until his father’s death on December 30th 1934.

[Ronald Montesano]

Wonder if he worked with Dev in the construction of Lenox Hills cc?

[Joe Bausch]

Did Tillinghast have involvement in the training of Alfred Tull? His name is on some of the Bethpage courses.

Dear RonMon,

Tull was trained by Joe Burbeck.

Sincerely,
P. Young

 

[DMoriarty]

Although some of the work was billed as collaborative at the time, it is true that George Low and Peter Lees did construct courses designed by Tillinghast.  But Phil's implication that George Low and Peter Lees were from some sort of a Tillinghast lineage of architects is more than a stretch.  Here's how the late Tom MacWood addressed a similar issue when Phil had previously claimed that Tillinghast "mentored" Lees and Low:

"You obviously don't know Low and Lees' background otherwise you would have never made such idiotic statement. Lees had 25 years of experience prior to meeting Tilly. He was involved in two of the most revolutionary projects in golf architecture history - Royal Mid Surrey and Lido (under JH Taylor and CB Macdonald). He contributed a chapter to HG Hutchinson's Golf Greens and Grrenkeeping (1906), the first book devoted to design, construction and maintenance. Low was involved in renovating Dyker Meadow (a very high profile course at the time) around 1900, and with renovations at Ekwanok, Baltusrol and Miami prior to hooking up with Tilly. Both had more experience than Tilly when the three hooked up, if anyone had influence it was them on him."\

While Willard Wilkinson may well have been a fine designer in his own right, in my mind Phil's response goes a long ways towards establishing the validity of Tom Doak's comment.   If there was a long line of accomplished architects from the Tillinghast stable then I don't see why Phil would have to try to glom onto Lees or Low.

[Joe Bausch]

Did Tillinghast have involvement in the training of Alfred Tull? His name is on some of the Bethpage courses.

Dear RonMon,

Tull was trained by Joe Burbeck.

Sincerely,
P. Young

 

You didn't fall for that did you Ron?  

Here is the response from the real Phil Young:

Alfred Tull worked as a design associate for Tillinghast in 1922 before moving on to work with Emmet.
 
When he redesigned the original Blue course to create the new Blue and Yellow courses his contract listed him as a "Consultant" just as Tilly's referred to him. In his redesign he used 11 of the existing holes from the Blue for the new Yellow course, redesigning most of the existing Tillinghast features out of them, which is why the 12th hole on the Yellow looks nothing at all like the original Reef hole that was designed by Tilly. Of the leftover 7 original holes, only 5 would make their way onto the new Blue as the new holes and re-routing of the course along different land destroyed the other 2. Even then, the remaining 5 had most of their Tillinghast features also designed out of them.

The evolution of all 5 of the courses is gone into great detail in the upcoming new history of Bethpage which will be available early this summer...

[Joe Bausch]

More from Phil the Author:

David, I am not "glomming" onto Low & Lees. The fact is that the two of them worked for him in constructing courses and that he did help them when they began their design careers. Tilly had others who worked for him including Alfred Tull as I mentioned to Joe earlier.

Tom Doak stated the "no subsequent architect ever claimed to have worked with Tillinghast or to have been trained by Tillinghast." He is incorrect in that. You are incorrect when you state, "If there was a long line of accomplished architects from the Tillinghast stable..." implying that I am trying to create that image. I am not. I wrote, "that Tilly trained several fairly well-known architects and helped them start their own practices..." The last I looked "several fairly well-known architects" certainly isn't a phrase that implies the meaning "a long line of accomplished architects..." My answer to Tom was simply to let him & others know that Tilly did indeed train and aid architects who would go out on their own. That includes Wilkinson, Lees, Low & Alfred Tull who worked for him before he went to work for Emmet..
 
I'm not looking to either debate or argue with you. I'm just passing along some information. Among the places where you can find that information is in the Cornish and Whitten book "The Golf Course." Do with it as you wish including completely ignoring it...

[DMoriarty]

Including Low and Lees in the Tillinghast stable of architects is silly.

[Chris_Blakely]

Did Tillinghast have involvement in the training of Alfred Tull? His name is on some of the Bethpage courses.

No but Devereux Emmet did as they were partners in the 20's and 30's.

Chris

[David_Tepper]

The website for Jumping Brook GC (Neptune, NJ) clearly states Wilkerson was an associate of Tillinghast.

http://www.jumpingbrookcc.com/golf-course/course-history

 

[Ronald Montesano]

Tull was trained by Joe Burbeck.

You didn't fall for that did you Ron?  

The evolution of all 5 of the courses is gone into great detail in the upcoming new history of Bethpage which will be available early this summer...[/i]

No, thank you very little.

I assume we'll all have a shot at purchasing said tome...

[Ian Andrew]

November 1924 from Canadian Golfer

Work on the alterations to Scarboro Golf Course, from the plans of well known architect, Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, progressed the season just closed in a very satisfactory manner. The sites of Nos. 3, 10, 11 15 and 18 greens have been changed around quite a lot in the new lay-out.  For instance, No. 3 is on the site of the old No. 2, and No. 18 is built joining it and faces down the fairway, with a tee in the vicinity of the old 8th tee.  The length of the new holes from the back tee will be:  No. 3, 350 yards; No. 10, 533 yards; No. 11, 118 yards; No. 15, 283 yards, and No. 18, 392 yards.  Each green has a twelve inch layer of screened top soil, which was prepared by means of a “Royer” Compose Mixer, run by a 4 h.p. gasoline engine.  This machine is the only one of its kind in Canada, and is capable of screening 5 to 6 cubic yards of turfy soil per hour, or if screening compost from a heap, 9 cubic yards per hour.  A marvelous machine.  Four of the five greens are sown and the grass is up but No. 11 is not to be sown until Spring, 1925.  Bent Grass seed has been used.  Some of the fairways have been twisted around quite a bit to fit these greens in, so there will be new grass on parts.  The new 18th has made quite a change at the hill, which has been graded down now and is a great improvement.  On leaving the old 8th green and climbing the steps, one does not recognize the landscape now, so changed it is.  Speaking of landscape, these new greens and traps are all blended in so beautifully that they look like blown sand dunes, such fine flowing lines they have.  

 A beautiful water-colour drawing of the new course (when finished), hangs in the Club House.  It is the work of Capt. D. Lloyd Rees, R. A., Mr. Tillinghast’s engineer.  


Just throwing one more individual in the mix to see if anyone knew his role.
...Or is this a typo and that refers to Lees and not Rees?

[Tom_Doak]

November 1924 from Canadian Golfer

Work on the alterations to Scarboro Golf Course, from the plans of well known architect, Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, progressed the season just closed in a very satisfactory manner. The sites of Nos. 3, 10, 11 15 and 18 greens have been changed around quite a lot in the new lay-out.  For instance, No. 3 is on the site of the old No. 2, and No. 18 is built joining it and faces down the fairway, with a tee in the vicinity of the old 8th tee.  The length of the new holes from the back tee will be:  No. 3, 350 yards; No. 10, 533 yards; No. 11, 118 yards; No. 15, 283 yards, and No. 18, 392 yards.  Each green has a twelve inch layer of screened top soil, which was prepared by means of a “Royer” Compose Mixer, run by a 4 h.p. gasoline engine.  This machine is the only one of its kind in Canada, and is capable of screening 5 to 6 cubic yards of turfy soil per hour, or if screening compost from a heap, 9 cubic yards per hour.  A marvelous machine.  Four of the five greens are sown and the grass is up but No. 11 is not to be sown until Spring, 1925.  Bent Grass seed has been used.  Some of the fairways have been twisted around quite a bit to fit these greens in, so there will be new grass on parts.  The new 18th has made quite a change at the hill, which has been graded down now and is a great improvement.  On leaving the old 8th green and climbing the steps, one does not recognize the landscape now, so changed it is.  Speaking of landscape, these new greens and traps are all blended in so beautifully that they look like blown sand dunes, such fine flowing lines they have.  

 A beautiful water-colour drawing of the new course (when finished), hangs in the Club House.  It is the work of Capt. D. Lloyd Rees, R. A., Mr. Tillinghast’s engineer.  


Just throwing one more individual in the mix to see if anyone knew his role.
...Or is this a typo and that refers to Lees and not Rees?

I doubt that is Peter Lees.  What are the letters R.A. ?  Royal Army?

[Adam Lawrence]

Royal Artillery.

[Joe Bausch]

Tilly and this Capt D. Lloyd Rees are also mentioned in this 1925 NY Sun article:

[Ed Oden]

On a somewhat related note, here is a thread from a few months back about a golf architecture curriculum in 1920... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56596.0.html  So it seems that the early 1920s may have seen the arrival of the first programs where course design and construction was taught outside of on the job training.  Was that important to the legitimacy of GCA as a profession?

[Neil Regan]

David Rees remained at Progress (now Old Oaks) through at least 1929.
He had some connection to Fenway (Fenimore) but I can't find that right now.
Rees drew a very good plan of Winged Foot in 1929 for the National Open.
I have that somewhere too.

[Ed Homsey]

Correspondence between Alfred Tull and Walter Travis, in 1924, would suggest that Travis should be given some credit for the training of Tull.  Tull had built some of Travis's course but ran an ad for his services in Golf Illustrated that Travis took issue with.  In a letter from Tull (quoted on p 211 of "The Old Man", by Bob Labbance) to Travis, Tull stated, ".....there has never been on my part any intention of claiming the designing of the courses you mention.  I certainly do claim full credit for their construction.  If you wish I am quite willing to insert, 'designed by Walter J. Travis', but I could hardly do so without your permission.  I also note that in architectural work, I am quite withour practical knowledge or experience.  My dear Sir, I have been studying golf course architecture for the past five years under a Master, you do scant justice to my intelligence to assume that I have handled your construction work for some years and listened to the praise, comments, and criticisms of club members without gaining a lot of practical experience."

[Jud_T]

fyi- a pretty detailed history of Tull's work, for what it's worth.  A cursory reading shows the only Tillie mentions are as a construction supervisor and Tull's redesign of Bethpage Blue:

http://www.rockleigh.org/recreation/golf/Tull.htm

[Marty Bonnar]

R.A. after an artists name normally stands for Royal Academy. Pretty big deal in British art circles.

http://www.royalacademy.org.uk

In this case, given the 'Captain' thing, maybe he's just a talented amateur who's also in the military...

Cheers,
F.

[Niall C]

FBD

Many officers from WWI continued to use their rank/designation long after they had left and were back in civvy street including Dr Mackenzie on occasion and particularly his brother so agree it would be entirely possible that a fellow from the Royal Academy would have been an officer in WWI.

Niall

[Niall C]

Including Low and Lees in the Tillinghast stable of architects is silly.

Agree. Peter Lees was considered the doyen of greenkeepers well before he went to the US, and that was at a time when the boundary between architecture and greenkeeping was fairly blurred. I don't have a list of design credits for him but I suspect if we went looking we would find them. He was, from what I recall, a founder member of the Greenkeeprs Assoc along with Hawtree although could be wrong on that count. I don't doubt that there would have been an exchange of ideas between the two with Tilly relying heavily on Lees for the nuts and bolts of how to build and maintain. In that respect Lees would have been the teacher. That Tilly later helped Lees to get design work in no way means that Tilly tutored Lees on gca IMO.

Niall 

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