Good Par 5 2nd shots

[Jason Topp]

I find that the 2nd shot an a course's par fives provide a good indicator of the quality of a design.  In my world, the 2nd shot rarely involves thoughts about hitting the green.  Instead, they involve a series of gray shaded options ranging from a very safe layup, that leaves an approach of 150 yards or more to a very aggressive shot that leaves a half pitch.  On the best, the best option varies from day to day.  Ideally water is not a huge factor and the hazard is something from which one has a chance of recovery.  

Most of the examples I can identify would not be well known to this group.  What makes for a good par 5 2nd shot for you and what are your examples of such holes?

[Matt Glore]

I always think the 2nd shot should have a challenge of clearing something to have 100 or less to the hole.  Played yesterday at TPC Louisiana, there is a fairway obstacle on three of the four par 5s in the middle or near middle of the fairway.  
18 is a great example with a deep bunker at 130 out.  Its a tough cary, usually 160-180 out from a good drive, and there is water down the right.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

Of all the designers, I think AWT, consistently produced interesting second shots

[Thomas Dai]

Nicer to watch on TV when the 2nd shot on a par-5 is not the shot to the green and the 3rd shot is not played with a wedge.
atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nicer to watch on TV when the 2nd shot on a par-5 is not the shot to the green and the 3rd shot is not played with a wedge.
atb

Thomas,

In light of the distances the PGA TOUR PROS hit the ball, that's almost impossible.

[Rob Curtiss]

I dont think so much about the second shot on a par 5 ..if i have to lay back to 150 yrds or try to get over something to get to a good third shot wedge distance...

What I cant stand is when you cant use driver off the tee box on a par 5..because there is a hazard right at my driving distance...

YOU SHOULD ALWAYS BE ABLE TO USE A DRIVER OFF THE TEE BOX ON A PAR 5..to me at least

[Matt Glore]

Nicer to watch on TV when the 2nd shot on a par-5 is not the shot to the green and the 3rd shot is not played with a wedge.
atb

Thomas,

In light of the distances the PGA TOUR PROS hit the ball, that's almost impossible.

+1- The same hole I played yesterday 18 at TPC LA, the pros go for the green, with any drive in the fairway.  I played with two older gentlemen and we played the "up" tees and I hit a great drive and great three wood to hit the green side bunker.  The pros hit it with hybrid from the longest set of tees +75 yards.  Every par 5 on that course is easily in range for every PGA pro.

[Ben Kodadek]

Jason,
 
I think you'll find that 17 Blue at Streamsong fits this criteria very well.  A well struck drive leaves the player with the option to challenge the cross bunkers and have a much shorter approach.  However, if the carry is not pulled off a certain bogey (or worse) awaits.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I find the second shot at #14 of Teeth of the Dog very difficult.  Going for the green requires a very strong tee shot, and the lagoon on the right intimidates.  The layup is no bargain.  Water still on right, and bunkers on left precede woods, while even the right side of the fairway is dotted with annoying dips and craters.  Very under rated shot, I think.

[Joe Bausch]

I like your description of a good 2nd shot par 5.  I might quibble a bit and have reaching it in two more than just rarely!  

But one of my favorites is the 4th hole at Glen Mills (Bobby Weed) in the Philly 'burbs.  The drive doesn't seem demanding, but a perfectly placed drive leaves you about 250 in, a slightly downhill shot with lots of visual intimidation.  You can lay up to 150 yards with a short iron, but distance control is really needed or trouble (short) or bunker (long) can result.  You can instead choose to play a much longer 2nd shot but more trouble comes into play.  Here is the view:

(click to obtain a much larger size)

[Steve Lapper]

I'd agree with Pat re: AWT putting the most thought into the 2nd shot. Holes like #7 at Pine Valley (HHA suggested by AWT), Bethpage Black's #'s 4 & 13 and Quaker Ridge's #14 are prime examples. Other Tilly's like Fenway, Five Farms and even Baltusrol all have highly strategic par 5's with very good 2nd shots.

[JESII]

The three at Huntingdon Valley all carry a wide range of options with increasing challenge the closer you want to get to the green.

[Jim Colton]

I can think of some good examples on modern courses -

6th at Old Mac
15th at Old Mac
2nd at Cabot Links

All have annoying hazards that need to be negotiated and get into your head on the second shot.

The Tillinghast reference is a good one. The last par 5 at Quaker Ridge has this feature.

[Jason Topp]

I like your description of a good 2nd shot par 5.  I might quibble a bit and have reaching it in two more than just rarely!  

I agree with you Joe ideally but wanted to focus on interesting 2nd shots independent of the possibility of reaching the green.  

[Adam Clayman]

I'd agree that elasticity is the key to quality par 5's. One of the best eye opening justifications I've ever heard, for NOT making a hole as long as possible, is the "go, no go" option. Holes where there's no decisions, or it's always the same, are inferior to those with this aspect.

[BCowan]

Jason-  I think Willie Park Jr does a great job of using natural features/hazards like gulley's to make the average golfer think in a strategic manor.  With technology the short par 5's enables the good player/pro to think less and just react.  Here is a sketch of the 17th hole at Sylvania CC.  The hole is 485 yd par 5 from the tips and 440 from members.  There is a ridge halfway through that hole that gives shorter player a blind 2nd shot and he or she has to determine whether or not to lay short of the gulley or try and carry it with a solid 2nd shot leaving a pitch.  I love that the hole has no water, a blind shot, and natural features that require thought for people who hit it less than 270 off the tee.  The X's indicate the gulley's.  

[Thomas Dai]

Are there any true par-5's for the tour pro's these days, ones where they have to hit 3 full shots to the greens, and not just into the wind either?
atb

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Two of the best I can think of are on the same course Pine Valley.
First of all the sixth where the player has to make the decision on carry hells half acre ot even laying up and playing the hole as a four shotter.
A poor drive from the back tees and this option becomes a reality.

But the 15th is my favourite.
Be bold and crack three wood or long iron to get closer to the green, but have to hit from a downhill lie to a somewhat elevated green, or lay back onto the flat portion of the fairway but a longer shot in.
Great two holes.
Another would be the 14th at Diamante.
The landing area for the second shot tightens the closer you get to the green and again a donhill shot into the green results the closer you get to the green.
The widest and flattest landing area is about 150 out into an intimidating green nestled into the dunes.

[Matthew Essig]

Are there any true par-5's for the tour pro's these days, ones where they have to hit 3 full shots to the greens, and not just into the wind either?
atb

14 at Pebble
9 at Congressional
16 at Firestone
11 at Colonial

I believe other holes, like 8 at TPC San Antonio, depend too much on the wind.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jason,
 
I think you'll find that 17 Blue at Streamsong fits this criteria very well.  A well struck drive leaves the player with the option to challenge the cross bunkers and have a much shorter approach.  However, if the carry is not pulled off a certain bogey (or worse) awaits.

Totally agree with this, a great hole,wonderful esthetic quality looking into that green from the fairway.
The bunkers look deceptively close secondary to their immense size and will lull the player into thinking they are an easy carry.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,
 
I think you'll find that 17 Blue at Streamsong fits this criteria very well.  A well struck drive leaves the player with the option to challenge the cross bunkers and have a much shorter approach.  However, if the carry is not pulled off a certain bogey (or worse) awaits.

Totally agree with this, a great hole,wonderful esthetic quality looking into that green from the fairway.
The bunkers look deceptively close secondary to their immense size and will lull the player into thinking they are an easy carry.

This hole struck me as very interesting from an aerial picture.  In particular, I found it interesting that they went with a full set of bunkers essentially creating a cross bunker at that point.  I hope we will not be playing the back tees when I go there so carrying it will be an option.

[Greg Tallman]

Two of the best I can think of are on the same course Pine Valley.
First of all the sixth where the player has to make the decision on carry hells half acre ot even laying up and playing the hole as a four shotter.
A poor drive from the back tees and this option becomes a reality.

But the 15th is my favourite.
Be bold and crack three wood or long iron to get closer to the green, but have to hit from a downhill lie to a somewhat elevated green, or lay back onto the flat portion of the fairway but a longer shot in.
Great two holes.
Another would be the 14th at Diamante.
The landing area for the second shot tightens the closer you get to the green and again a donhill shot into the green results the closer you get to the green.
The widest and flattest landing area is about 150 out into an intimidating green nestled into the dunes.

Interesting MWP, I find the second at 14 the least compelling of any of the par 5s at DD if not on the course as a whole.

Even at 6, arguably the weakest of the 5 pars, good drive of bad, the 2nd is more thought provoking than the "just beat something super low as far as you can so maybe I can reach the green with my 3rd" second shot at 14.  

[Niall C]

13th Silloth - chices, always choices. Whether to go for the green on the rare occasion you are far enough up to do it. More often the question is whether to hit up to the top deck or play short and then go for the green. Brilliant hole no matter the wind.

Also qualifies for Thomas's thread about great links holes that don't have bunkers.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,
 
I think you'll find that 17 Blue at Streamsong fits this criteria very well.  A well struck drive leaves the player with the option to challenge the cross bunkers and have a much shorter approach.  However, if the carry is not pulled off a certain bogey (or worse) awaits.

Ben,

Great example.

But, the decision on the second shot is greatly influenced by one's drive.

I found it a great par 5, with a premium on every shot

[Jason Topp]

I love the use of the drawing!  Land contours present the most interesting options for my tastes but it is so difficult to demonstrate them with pictures.  

One of my favorites is the 12th at Waveland Muni in Des Moines, Iowa.  It is a 575 yard par five with a big hill that appears to have been bulldozed flat at the top with the flat spot starting at 130 yards from the middle of the green and ending 70 yards short of the green.  The hill is very steep so if you are short you have a 150 yard blind shot from an uphill lie.  If you get to the top, the closer you get to the far edge, the more visible the shot becomes.  However, you need to skirt the right side to avoid running through the fairway.  If you get your second over the flat spot and keep it right, it will run next to the green.  There were a number of potential lines off the tee that yielded either a flat lie or a shorter distance for that 2nd shot.  The shot makes the tee shot interesting because you could hug the right side of the slight dogleg right to shorten the distance (dramatically if you caught a downslope) or hit to the left for a better angle from a flat lie.  

The fairway was not irrigated when I was a kid so a hot August day with a south wind made getting the ball next to the green a possibility.  Last time I played there the fairway was watered and the flat fairway on the left side that typically was my target was now in the rough.  

None of this is evident from the aerial photo - these coordinates mark the fairway if you want to look:  41.596823,-93.686022