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Joe Bausch

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In April of 1915 A.W. Tillinghast, writing weekly for the Philadelphia Record, penned this article talking about Lido and Macdonald and MacKenzie, the National, and Pine Valley and Colt and Crump.  For now I'll just let the article do the talking.   :)

(the article is 'clickable' to a slightly larger size)

« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:21:30 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Past masters
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 02:37:08 PM »
Fantastic find, Joe!

Anthony

Joe Bausch

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 05:28:58 PM »
There is plenty to digest in that piece, eh, AP?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 05:50:01 PM »
Thanks for posting, Joe.

May I ask what you see as the "plenty to digest" in article?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 06:01:38 PM »
Thanks for posting, Joe.

May I ask what you see as the "plenty to digest" in article?

It's a long article David.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 06:23:54 PM »
We surely live in a twitter universe when this is considered is a long article.

Did you find nothing notable other than the number of words?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 06:42:11 PM »
We surely live in a twitter universe when this is considered is a long article.

Did you find nothing notable other than the number of words?

I'll wait for others and hopefully you to weigh in David.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 06:49:54 PM »
I'm interested in what you think, and I'll bet others are as well.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 06:53:32 PM »
I'm interested in what you think, and I'll bet others are as well.

And I'm very interested in what you think, and the thoughts for others as well!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Peter Pallotta

Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 06:56:04 PM »
Thanks, Joe.

David - you've studied the era more than most, so maybe there were few surprises for you. But for me, even just the first paragraph contained some nuggets. E.g.

T talks about everyone thinking the National the last word in golf construction. I found that word curious, in that I assumed NGLA was first and foremost the last word in design/architecture (and that upon this kind of excellence did its already formidable reputation rest)....but then, CBM himself is referenced as saying Lido would exceed anything that had come before, and the description of the site that follows makes clear that he and T are indeed talking about the constructing/engineering aspect of building a course as much if not more so than the design. All of which I would never have imagined so soon after CBM had spent so much time writing about (and creating) the "ideal" golf course based on the architectural principles found on the great old GB&I courses.  

Edit: In other words, it surprised me that, despite our/my assumptions about the early golden age, the minimalist ethos/value system had clearly not yet taken hold or at least had not yet gained many prominent/vocal advocates.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 07:08:39 PM by PPallotta »

Rick Wolffe

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 07:41:06 PM »
Great find Joe!

At this time Tillinghast himself was just getting going as a golf architect...and it is interesting that he shares some of his opinions and feelings on Macdonald, Mackenzie, Colt and Crump...perhaps in the same way a young college student views his more senior professors...and do we detect a bit of jealousy that Mackenzie won the Lido compeition?

Another Question, did Tillinghast submit an entry for the Country Club Life Lido competition?

Jim Nugent

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2014, 01:04:36 AM »
What stood out to me in the article:

CBM moved 2 million cubic yards of material at Lido.

The slight knock on Mackenzie's winning design for Lido.

Tillie considered Crump's holes the best ones at Pine Valley, equal to or surpassing Colt's.

Tillie called CBM simply one of the organizers and designers of NGLA, instead of the lead guy who drove the project on both fronts.  




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 08:46:13 AM »
I didn't know Connie Mack was a big golfer.  

Tillie's projection about how the 1915 baseball season might go was just a bit off, though.  Mack had sold all his best players over the winter of 1914, or lost them to the Federal League, and that 1915 team was one of the worst ever.

JC Jones

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 09:37:54 AM »
Thanks, Joe.

David - you've studied the era more than most, so maybe there were few surprises for you. But for me, even just the first paragraph contained some nuggets. E.g.

T talks about everyone thinking the National the last word in golf construction. I found that word curious, in that I assumed NGLA was first and foremost the last word in design/architecture (and that upon this kind of excellence did its already formidable reputation rest)....but then, CBM himself is referenced as saying Lido would exceed anything that had come before, and the description of the site that follows makes clear that he and T are indeed talking about the constructing/engineering aspect of building a course as much if not more so than the design. All of which I would never have imagined so soon after CBM had spent so much time writing about (and creating) the "ideal" golf course based on the architectural principles found on the great old GB&I courses.  

Edit: In other words, it surprised me that, despite our/my assumptions about the early golden age, the minimalist ethos/value system had clearly not yet taken hold or at least had not yet gained many prominent/vocal advocates.

Peter

Are you saying that minimalist generation were not, in fact, minimalists in philosophy?  Only that they used minimalist design as a result of constraint and not choice?

Are today's minimalists the true minimalists because they have the choice to use modern land construction techniques and are choosing not to? 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 10:24:15 AM »
That is correct, JC, that's what I think. And indeed, I'd suggest that even under conditions of 'constraints' minimalism was not utilized/embraced by the golden agers nearly as often as we think.

It seems increasingly clear to me that, while there were striking exceptions/examples of the golden agers demonstrating wonderful routing skills on sites that they left relatively unchanged/in their natural state, in general there was no particular value placed on (what we now call) minimalism, no particular desire to work with the land as architects found it, and no particular interest in avoiding earthmoving, especially if time and budgets allowed for that earthmoving; and it seems clear too that the philosophy/ethos/approach that we today praise so highly had very few dedicated and/or vocal proponents, either before the golden age, during it,  or for decades after it.

I'm suggesting that the recent "renaissance" is mis-named; it is a catchy label, and it does convey meaning and a value system, but the minimalism as practiced over the past 20-30 years or so is actually the birth of a new approach, not a re-birth of any previous approach. That some of today's great minimalist courses have the look and feel of some of the golden age greats is, well, not accidental (far from that in fact) but at least besides the point. Some of these modern greats look like they've been around 100 years, and in this they do sometimes look like a few of the great courses that have been around 100 years; but today's courses got to looking that way via a much different approach/philosophy than did the 'originals'.

It really is, this renaissance, a wonderful (and wonderfully effective) trick of memory and time and intention: over time, the golden age courses slowly melding and blending "naturally' into the very surroundings that we now, after 70 years, assume had originally existed in that state; and then students (like Tom and C&C) who fell in love with and admired and respected the great courses and architects of the past come along intending to pay homage to those early examples, and they do so (and pull off that homage) with skill and talent, but via a method and a philosophy hardly dreamed of by their predecessors; and then fading/non-existing memories have us all (architects and afficiandos alike) forget and/or re-work the past so that we don't notice the trick any longer -- which is exactly the way we want it, as it connects us to the past and to the history of the game and of the art-craft of gca in a lovely way, and produces courses that make us feel at peace.  

And finally, I'd suggest that the notion of the renaissance (and the design firm named after it) are reflective of two traits that Tom D doesn't get enough credit for - i.e. his modesty and his moxie. Modesty in placing himself not as the creator/birther of a new approach but instead within a long 'tradition', as a follower of others before him and not a leader; and moxie in playing a role in actually shaping/creating that 'tradition' so that there'd be a framework and a label for others to understand and embrace the kind of work he wanted to do and build his career upon.
Peter
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 11:10:57 AM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 08:09:32 PM »
Peter:  That was too flattering, really.  It's as nice a thing as anyone has ever said about my career.

I really never considered placing myself as the creator of a brand-new approach, because nobody would have listened to me.  I just started by trying to imitate what I'd seen in my travels, not just around the Golden Age courses but around all the links courses which were THEIR models.

You are right that not many of the designers back then were trying to be minimalists.  Old Tom Morris built greens, instead of just laying them on the ground.  C.B. Macdonald was so jazzed up about Lido because he WANTED to play God and create a great links from scratch.  Alister MacKenzie talked more about imitating Nature than the others, but he was also into the latest technology -- he might well have moved lots of earth if he'd had the power to do so, and it's too bad he didn't, so that all the modern guys would have had a good model to follow.

Even so, the courses that I loved were built with a minimum of artifice, and when Ben Crenshaw asked [seriously] why couldn't anyone build courses that way anymore, I said I thought we could.  It was just that no one was trying.  Of course, at that point developers weren't trying to find good land for us to work with, either … when that changed, the Renaissance was off and running.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 07:29:31 AM »
What stood out to me in the article:

CBM moved 2 million cubic yards of material at Lido.

The slight knock on Mackenzie's winning design for Lido.

Tillie considered Crump's holes the best ones at Pine Valley, equal to or surpassing Colt's.

Tillie called CBM simply one of the organizers and designers of NGLA, instead of the lead guy who drove the project on both fronts.  


You digested that long article well, Jim!

:)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sean_A

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 08:06:54 AM »
Pietro

While I agree that the ODGs were not overly concerned about shifting dirt, but I think in practice the UK ODGs were just as minimalist as the most minimalist designers of today.  Just think of shaping and how abrupt so much of it was back in the day.  These guys pushed dirt herea dn there as desired.  They didn't landscape entire courses. For instance, there wasn't much concern about the extra effort to shape out to tree lines.  Much of the time there were no trees so the shaping had to tie into a natural landform or not and often times it was not- but you get the idea.  When I look at links, most are essentially found holes with tweeks here and there; such as building tee platforms, sometimes cutting gaps or lowering dunes to enhance visibility etc.  I don't think a lot of time was spent pushing dirt for the sake of looking natural except perhaps in Dr Mac's case and in the UK at least.  He failed anyway because a lot of his stuff doesn't look natural.  I think the difference between now and then really boils down to money. Even for many modest spend minimalist courses for well known archies today, the adjusted amount I think would be staggering to a guy like Colt or Fowler.  For the most part, these guys were efficient and functional based archies.  Sure, they sometimes were extravagent, but not too often when we look at the big picture - its just that the picture is filled with the famous designs of these guys.  

Ciao      
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 09:18:04 AM »
Thanks, Sean - I was thinking about what Tom wrote and now you, and I think you're right. I may have over-reached in my theory. As you noted (but to use Tom's words), I should've looked not "just around the Golden Age courses but around all the links courses which were THEIR models"...and I think many of the courses you refer to fall into that latter, i.e. earlier, pre golden age in America period. I do still think, though, that once architecture got going in America and during that golden age, the focus/ideal was not minimalism. I guess we could say that the rebirth, then, was a re-emergence of a style/look that was found not so much at America's golden age courses but at the modestly budgeted GB&I  courses that preceeded them.
Peter

Joe Bausch

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2014, 11:23:20 AM »
From An Observer:

What is most notable to me about that article is contained in the first two sentences! Apparently Tillinghast thinks there has been a massive new change in construction methods and extent in golf architecture in the last five years (1910-1915). Is he assigning this massive new change in construction in the last five years primarily to Macdonald? It's hard to say but Macdonald is the only one he mentioned in that particular context. Is this an important or even symbolic change in the evolution of golf architecture?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Charlie Gallagher

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2014, 12:19:36 PM »
     If I am understanding the drawing of the 4th hole at Lido, I find it to be a cunning puzzle. The off set angles of the two sections of fairway left look to me to propose multiple angles of play for the 2nd shot with enhanced consideration required because of the additional offset created by the green's placement. The angles radiating from the landing area appear likely to require a good deal of precision for placing the 2nd shot on short grass, and  there is the additional factor of partial blindness on the right side of the landing area, but possible advantage in that corner too.   Then there is the island of fairway right, which is set in a pitching sea of mounds, surrounded by further trouble, but presenting the best opportunity to have a good angle into the green if one is inclined to go for it in two. The diagram suggests visual discomfort and confusion. Just add wind.
    I love holes like this. The options allow for experimentation and don't necessarily suggest the best route. What a superb match play hole.
    I read George Bahto's book and it makes me wish very much that Lido still existed.

DMoriarty

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2014, 02:01:24 PM »
Joe

I am not sure why the "Observer" seems so surprised that there was a fundamental shift in how American golf courses were created beginning with NGLA, or that C. B. Macdonald was viewed as the person primarily responsible for the shift.  So far as I can tell, Tillinghast is saying nothing new on this front.  Experts on both sides of the ocean had been saying the same thing for a few years, and Tillinghast seems to be reciting the common wisdom (although somewhat begrudgingly and perhaps somewhat inaccurately.)

For instance, in the first part of the article AWT could well have been borrowing (in his own words, of course) from what respected golf writer and quality amateur golfer John G. Anderson had written a few months earlier in his Golf Illustrated 'The Year at a Glance' article:

The highest sort of advancement has been made this year in the architecture of courses. The members of clubs all over the United States have been obsessed with the idea that they must have the best course that money could buy and have it quick. The demand for course architects has exceeded the supply, but the results are seen on every hand. Visitors from across the water confess that The National Golf Links of America is just about the best course that there is to be found anywhere. New courses in the Philadelphia district are going to surpass anything which they have and thereby increase the ability of the golfers; away out in St. Louis there is a new course which promises to become the rival of any in the land; the war hasn't affected the pocketbooks when it comes to needed golf improvements. The golf course-to-be at Long Beach, when finished, will be the last word in architecture and prodigious labor; there never was a greater attempt anywhere to bring order out of chaos, to shape and mold a golf links out of such perfectly apparent difficulties. Every branch of industry, every profession, every avocation, has its geniuses; golfing America should be proud of the fact that she has the finest golf architectural genius of modern times in Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, whose constructive work on these lines is unequalled.

And from "Our Green Committee Page" of the same issue of Golf Illustrated:

There is no excuse now for any new golf club making the mistakes which were sure to be made ten years ago. From Long Island to St. Louis there are courses which bear the imprint of Mr. C. B. Macdonald and the National.   And anyone interested in laying out a new course can surely afford a journey to the National where he can get ocular demonstration of what should be done. Then there are a number of golf courses dotted about the country such as that of the Old Elm Tree Club near Chicago and the Detroit Country Club. They have not, perhaps, quite the variety and boldness of the courses inspired by the National; but they are very good, and they also form living text books of the agricultural side of course making. The chief rules are gradually getting to be stereotyped among the experts; but they are not written down anywhere. And there will always be wide scope for improvement and for imagination. For example it is only written the last three years that the wisest green committees are beginning to realize the necessity of watering the fair green in summer. The initial expense of the water plant is amply covered by the annual saving of good turf.   We are indeed in a new era of course making and course keeping; but there is still much to be done that is new; and the results of experience are not tabulated.   That is why a forum in GOLF ILLUSTRATED for the ventilating of ideas may be made a most valuable asset to the green keeper; and for that reason we welcome any enquiries and any information that may come to us; so that this department may become a circulating medium of ideas.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall C

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2014, 02:02:53 PM »
Sean

Tom D's point about the ODG's using whatever was available to build the course is spot on. They were still building and redesigning courses in the UK in the 1920's by using horse drawn scoops and guys with wheel barrows and I think you would be surprised how much earth they shifted. I think that would be termed as modifying the landscape as opposed to creating the landscape which is what CBM did at the Lido. I'm no expert on what the ODG's did over in the US at that time but I suspect they were using heavy machinery (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Here's a question - has that difference in scale of doing things carried through to today with the difference in UK/European design relative to US design ? I'm not necessarily referring purely to the nationality of the architect either but projects of the scale of Kingsbarns or Castle Stuart seem to be way bigger than any other project in this country at that time. Not saying that is a good or a bad thing, just an observation.

Niall


john_stiles

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2014, 03:03:45 PM »
It is a nice find for an early golf article.

Though AWT wrote a tremendous amount about golf,  there was the mention that AWT liked Crump's holes better than Colt's at PV.    Maybe that has been mentioned before but I did not notice before such a consise personal opinion.

Reading the introductory paragraph I was thinking uh-oh.   This article is 1915, the new Merion has been opened for less than 3 years, the US Amateur will be at Merion in 1916,  I was thinking here we go again.  But there were no fireworks.  It was odd that AWT did not mention Merion when discussing what Philadelphia had to counter Lido and National.

My favorite part was the last paragraph devoting a lot of space to his finding golf being played in the South on a rudimentary course.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 03:11:31 PM by john_stiles »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Past masters: Tilly weighs in on Lido/National/Pine Valley, etc.
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2014, 04:11:21 PM »
Is Tilly using the word "construction" to include architecture, or just the actual physical construction?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection