[Frank Pont]

Pat,

I am sure there are many reasons why the course isn't great, but to be honest I am not really that interested in it.

When browsing this site I am looking for lessons to be learned from great golf courses & great restorations/renovations.

I get excited by the pics of the "sīmple and inexpensive"work at Carne, I do not get that feeling looking at the "expensive" end product of Doral, even if there are thousand mitigating factors that cause it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I am sure there are many reasons why the course isn't great, but to be honest I am not really that interested in it.

How do you know it's NOT GREAT ?

When browsing this site I am looking for lessons to be learned from great golf courses & great restorations/renovations.

And you base your ability to learn lessons on just 21 photos of the golf course, some of which are redundant ?
That's a rather unique evaluative process.

I get excited by the pics of the "sīmple and inexpensive"work at Carne,

I do not get that feeling looking at the "expensive" end product of Doral, even if there are thousand mitigating factors that cause it.

So, you would have NO INTEREST in LIDO and YALE, two of the most expensive projects ever embarked upon in their time ? ? ?

Is it Trump or the golf course that's at the heart of your discontent ?

[Greg Tallman]

Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.

Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.

1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2.  What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3.  What was the mission of the developer
4.   Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5.   What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6.   What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7.   How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers

It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.

I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.

And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. 

Greg,

That leads me to believe that you're totally unfamiliar with the mission and creation of Pine Valley

Are you saying that Pine Valley's greatness lies only within the context of the mission at hand during its creation?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.

Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.

1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2.  What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3.  What was the mission of the developer
4.   Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5.   What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6.   What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7.   How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers

It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.

I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.

And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. 

Greg,

That leads me to believe that you're totally unfamiliar with the mission and creation of Pine Valley

Are you saying that Pine Valley's greatness lies only within the context of the mission at hand during its creation?

Greg,

Only a moron with impaired reading comprehension skills would ask that question.

Go back and reread my reply.

If you still can't answer your own question, have someone explain the answer to you, as it's obvious to all but you.

[Kevin_D]

Pat: in addition to your 7 questions, I would maybe add one more: how does the finished product compare to other options in the area?

If you're visiting Miami, want to play golf, and don't have a connection at Indian Creek, then I would say playing Doral Blue seems like a pretty good option.

I like the Biltmore, but don't like their cart-only policy before 10am.

I've also read somewhere that Hanse is working on other courses at Doral as well, so perhaps future work will focus more on playability and fun, without having to be up to the standard of being a "test" for tour pros.

[jeffwarne]

Pat: in addition to your 7 questions, I would maybe add one more: how does the finished product compare to other options in the area?

If you're visiting Miami, want to play golf, and don't have a connection at Indian Creek, then I would say playing Doral Blue seems like a pretty good option.

I like the Biltmore, but don't like their cart-only policy before 10am.

I've also read somewhere that Hanse is working on other courses at Doral as well, so perhaps future work will focus more on playability and fun, without having to be up to the standard of being a "test" for tour pros.

Kevin,

I hope he can achieve that on the other courses, but the corridors are SO much narrower on the other courses, I wonder how he makes them more playable and fun without filling in water.(Red and Gold anyway-haven't seen the McLean redo of the Silver but the corridors were crazy small there also)
the corridors are/were very wide at the Blue, and I always found that the MOST playable.

If they could improve the other courses at Doral, it would make the resort more attractive as the other courses have always been very bad and ball eaters, especially since the white course (which used to actually be playable) and par 3 course were bastardized by the Great White Debacle.
I don't think Trump bought the White course, but I could be wrong

[Kevin_D]

Thanks Jeff, that's interesting that the other courses are more narrow.  

On the Trump Doral web site, it lists the Blue, White, Red, McLean and Gold courses, so I assumed those were all owned by the Donald.

It also says this about Red, I am guessing this is the other one Hanse is working on?  I've never been there so can't guess at what they are doing.

THE RED COURSE
Effective July 1st, 2013, the Red Course will be closed for play in preparation for a complete re-design scheduled to commence in 2014. Stay tuned for further details regarding the redesign scope.

[jeffwarne]

Thanks Jeff, that's interesting that the other courses are more narrow.  

On the Trump Doral web site, it lists the Blue, White, Red, McLean and Gold courses, so I assumed those were all owned by the Donald.

It also says this about Red, I am guessing this is the other one Hanse is working on?  I've never been there so can't guess at what they are doing.

THE RED COURSE
Effective July 1st, 2013, the Red Course will be closed for play in preparation for a complete re-design scheduled to commence in 2014. Stay tuned for further details regarding the redesign scope.

Unless Donald bought about a 100 condos and/or fills in 50 acres of lakes, hard to see anything good coming out of the Red.
I hope I am wrong.
I say kudos to Hanse, who is in demand, for taking on the work, because it will be a challenge.

This is where I potentially disagree with Frank, who said he can't learn anything from such a project.(of course he may well be right, but I hope not)
I'd say producing a worthwhile course from what's there would be a hell of an education.-for someone, as well as the golf world.
Can't all be sandy sites, dunes, and minimalism

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: in addition to your 7 questions, I would maybe add one more: how does the finished product compare to other options in the area?

Kevin, in terms of courses other than local private courses, I don't think the options, from a quality of golf course perspective, are attractive.

There's so much tourist traffic in Miami, from Europe, Central and South America, and from the U.S.
Lot's of hotels, but no meaningful outlet for the guests.

IF, gambling is approved, Trump Doral would make an excellent site for a casino given the proximity of the Airport and Interstates.

I always thought that with the multiple courses at Doral, that he's assign usage to each one.
1 Private
2 Hotel
3 Casino & Resort
4 Public

About two weeks ago I asked someone very close to the Donald, what was going to happen with Doral, given his enormous investment in the property.  The answer I received.  "Don't worry about Donald, he knows what he's doing."
I don't think he purchased Doral on the blind.


If you're visiting Miami, want to play golf, and don't have a connection at Indian Creek, then I would say playing Doral Blue seems like a pretty good option.

I'd agree and I'd extend that to the greater Miami/Miami Beach area.

I like the Biltmore, but don't like their cart-only policy before 10am.

I've also read somewhere that Hanse is working on other courses at Doral as well, so perhaps future work will focus more on playability and fun, without having to be up to the standard of being a "test" for tour pros.

I would imagine that he's got multi-use intended for the complex's courses.

Jeff,

I'd agree

[Greg Tallman]

Limited photos from limited perspectives tend to make analysis difficult.
Add to that the "Lightning Rod" nature of the developer and the tendency to divert ones focus to the ubiquitous fountain and it's easy to see why the product that has neither been seen or played gets panned.

Before passing judgement, good or bad, I think you have to consider the following.

1. What was the quality of the course previously occupying the site ?
2.  What were the site constraints, physically and legally
3.  What was the mission of the developer
4.   Did the architect selected achieve the intended mission
5.   What's the quality of the finished product in the context of the mission
6.   What's the quality of the product overall, beyond the mission
7.   How does it play for the broad spectrum of golfers

It would seem that prior to addressing the above 7 questions, one would have to be familiar with the old course, along with Trumps intentions, and that one would have to have played the new course a few times or more.

I'm not particularly enamored with the course in WPB, so I'm anxious to play a course that would seem to be a major departure from previous projects.

And here I thought this site was about #6 minus the last three words. 

Greg,

That leads me to believe that you're totally unfamiliar with the mission and creation of Pine Valley

Are you saying that Pine Valley's greatness lies only within the context of the mission at hand during its creation?

Greg,

Only a moron with impaired reading comprehension skills would ask that question.

Go back and reread my reply.

If you still can't answer your own question, have someone explain the answer to you, as it's obvious to all but you.

At the risk of being branded a moron for the ages and one dumb enough to ask you to elaborate one of your one liner throw- aways I will sit back and allow you to explain to me along with the others who apparently need no explanation.

[Kevin_D]

Pat,

Yes, exactly my point - people shouldn't be comparing Doral to LACC or Bandon, they should be comparing it to other options in Miami, which are poor. For instance, Miami Beach Golf Club is a crappy muni that charges $200 per round. It also shouldn't be comared to Streamsong, which is a destination resort attracting buddies trips, and is about as close to Miami as Boston is to Philadelphia.

I don't know whether Doral Blue will be good, or great, or ok, or lousy, but based on what I've seen, it's certainly worth a try when I'm in Miami Beach with my wife next month.

Oh, and I also heard from friends in Miami right after the Donald bought it that they assumed he would have a casino there.

Kevin

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

It would seem as if Doral remains a work in progress rather than a completed project.

I'd be curious to know what others would consider a viable alternative in the greater Miami area.

Greg,

Are you aware of what the "mission" was at Pine Valley ?

[Mark Saltzman]

Pat,

Viable alternative? Having seen most of the courses in the area (Indian Creek and Boca Rio excluded), I would say Trump Doral Blue Monster is the best course within a 50 mile radius.

[Sean_A]

Mark

Thanks for the pictures.  I spose what the photos show is not surprising and I fall heavily in the Frank Pont camp.  Doral doesn't look anywhere near interesting enough for me to travel and fork out the dough.

Frank's comments get back to differentiating between the design and the final product.  It could well be that Hanse did a cracking job with Doral. This is something I can't answer and very few can because not many people know enough about design and particular projects to opine beyond a superficial level.  That said, the site will always be a major consideration in determining the quality of the product and this seems to be an obvious handicap for Doral.  On the other hand, a lot of people like this sort of thing so what the hell - live and let live.  The important thing is folks are offering opinions and we must all try to remember that slagging a course is not nearly the same thing as slagging an archie.  If one doesn't care for the look of a course what does it matter who designed it or why the design is as it is?      

I also don't see a problem with comparing any golf courses.  Golf, all golf, has a lot more in common than not and it is only our lack of imagination and skill which prevents a well reasoned and entertaining comparison of any two courses.  Sure, Doral may stack up well in FLA, but what does that really mean in terms of its quality?      

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark

Thanks for the pictures.  I spose what the photos show is not surprising and I fall heavily in the Frank Pont camp.  

Doral doesn't look anywhere near interesting enough for me to travel and fork out the dough.

Maybe that speaks to your inability to detect quality architecture through photo analysis

Frank's comments get back to differentiating between the design and the final product.  It could well be that Hanse did a cracking job with Doral. This is something I can't answer and very few can because not many people know enough about design and particular projects to opine beyond a superficial level.  

And yet, despite admitting that you don't know enough about the design of this particular project you did opine by stating:
Doral doesn't look anywhere near interesting enough for me to travel and fork out the dough


That said, the site will always be a major consideration in determining the quality of the product and this seems to be an obvious handicap for Doral.  

Then how was Dick Wilson able to craft a highly regarded golf course ?
How was also able to craft another great course on an almost perfectly flat site in designing Pine Tree ?

On the other hand, a lot of people like this sort of thing so what the hell - live and let live.  

What "sort of thing" ?

The important thing is folks are offering opinions and we must all try to remember that slagging a course is not nearly the same thing as slagging an archie.  If one doesn't care for the look of a course what does it matter who designed it or why the design is as it is?      

A look based on all of 21 photos, some of which are redundant ?

I also don't see a problem with comparing any golf courses.  

Don't you think the comparison should occur AFTER you've actually seen and played them ?

Golf, all golf, has a lot more in common than not and it is only our lack of imagination and skill which prevents a well reasoned and entertaining comparison of any two courses.  

How about a total lack of information based on a lack of first hand experience in seeing and playing the golf course ?

Sure, Doral may stack up well in FLA, but what does that really mean in terms of its quality?      

How would your statement above apply to Seminole or Pine Tree or Boca Rio ?
Don't you think that one should play a course before commenting on it's merits or demerits ?

And, since when are courses in Florida "second class citizens" ?

I guess, when you know absolutely nothing about golf courses in Florida, it's easy to make ignorant, reckless statements.

[Sean_A]

Pat

As usual, your post is full of sideline drivel and misses the mark on the two points of the post.  You even struggle to discern between questions and statements.  Get your act together man or stand down and stop wasting my time.    

I am very happy to make a call on whether a course interests me based on many photos.  Its only me who loses out of I am wrong.  No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call.  There is a big difference between design quality and course quality.  No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call either.  

What exactly is your beef, or is that post your green fix for the day?  If your response is more line by line green, don't bother as I won't respond that nonsense again.

Ciao  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

As usual, your post is full of sideline drivel and misses the mark on the two points of the post.  

My comments are spot on.
You don't have a clue when it comes to analyzing Gil's work at Doral and you don't have a clue as to the quality of the finished product.
And, you don't have a clue about the quality of golf courses in Florida

You even struggle to discern between questions and statements.  

The only thing I struggled with was how someone so unfamiliar with a golf course could make such definitive statements.

Get your act together man or stand down and stop wasting my time.    

My "act" was together before you were born

I am very happy to make a call on whether a course interests me based on many photos.  

"Many" ?   21 photos, some of which were redundant .
Truly, you're architectural intellect is dizzying.

Its only me who loses out of I am wrong.  No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call.  

Sure there is.
You "dissed" the course on a public forum without ever setting foot on it

There is a big difference between design quality and course quality.  

Are you telling us that a great design doesn't inherently produce a great golf course and that a poor design doesn't produce a poor golf course ?

Please explain the "big difference"

No reason to get your nose bent out of shape with that call either.  

I didn't, I just pointed out the inadequacies in your post

What exactly is your beef, or is that post your green fix for the day?  

My "beef" is that you, never having set foot on the property, and totally unfamiliar with golf courses in Florida, have made definitive statements about both.

If your response is more line by line green, don't bother as I won't respond that nonsense again.

I really don't care what you do.
Was the above sentence meant to discourage me from responding ?
If so, like your opinion of Doral, it didn't resonate with me.

[Greg Tallman]

Pat,

We are not talking about Pine Valley or its "mission" but I will galdly listen(read) as the master spins his tale (or perhaps tail) explaining to we unlearned few.

This site is about discussing the merits of the final product. It does not matter who did the work, what the constrainter were or were not... etc. Is it good or not?

[BCowan]

I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it?  Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?

thanks

[Steve Lapper]

I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it?  Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?

thanks

While I don't know the exact number you seek, I'm fairly sure none were added and several existing ones were expanded or shifted a bit.

Cheers

[jeffwarne]

I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it?  Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?

thanks

It was everglades-so it was all lake during the rainy season, not so much in dry season.
If you go west of Doral a few miles, you can see the process in action.
Anywhere that's not pushed up artificially in that area floods, so lakes were dug to create fill for land

[Mark Saltzman]

I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it?  Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?

thanks

While I don't know the exact number you seek, I'm fairly sure none were added and several existing ones were expanded or shifted a bit.

Cheers

Steve, actually, if you look at the aerial one earlier than the 1961 (pre-construction), there are appears to have been no water on site.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

We are not talking about Pine Valley or its "mission" but I will galdly listen(read) as the master spins his tale (or perhaps tail) explaining to we unlearned few.

Greg,

"YOU", and YOU alone brought up Pine Valley, in your reply # 54, NOT ME.

This site is about discussing the merits of the final product. It does not matter who did the work, what the constrainter were or were not... etc. Is it good or not?

"Good" for whom ?
A narrow slice of the golfing spectrum or the entire spectrum ?

Don't you bother to read what you type ?

[Steve Lapper]

I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it?  Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?

thanks

While I don't know the exact number you seek, I'm fairly sure none were added and several existing ones were expanded or shifted a bit.

Cheers

Steve, actually, if you look at the aerial one earlier than the 1961 (pre-construction), there are appears to have been no water on site.

When I played it frequently (with the Kaskels : the owning family and sons who were golf teammates of mine)  in the early and mid 70s, there were plenty of water hazards to contend with.  I'm sure they served at least three purposes: irrigation holding ponds; storm water drainage areas; and playing hazards.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am curious as if anyone knows how many natural water hazards (ponds/small lakes) were on the Blue course before Wilson built it? 

There were NO natural bodies of water on the property prior to Wilson's efforts.
It was all farmland and scrub.

Did he add any, and how many were there before construction?

Wilson added EVERY water feature that's on the property.
None were there before Wilson.

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