[RJ_Daley]

I think Mr. Mickle's nod to Mike Strantz's two courses, Bulls Bay and Tobacco Road are good calls.  And, the call on Chamber's Bay is also a good one since they essentially had to create the rootzone capped layer on a reconditioned gypsum field and plant.  I've seen all of those.  

One I haven't seen but I think might qualify as created is Haulaalai.  As I understand it, it is almost all created by grinding up the lava beds and spreading that on the hard lava flows.  I think I heard a golf course constructor talking about the grinding up the lava to literally manufacture a soil medium that they could plant turf seed.  

What about the few that are created on a methane oozing heap of land fill?  Does that count?  

[Matt Bosela]

Matt,

I ran the day-to-day construction at Sagebrush and can tell you, for a fact, that we moved about half as much earth as I originally thought was going to be required to create the course.

Dick's right, we did move a lot of material (including a lot of blasting of rock) to create the fairway at the 8th hole (the tees were elevated, the green site was pretty much there… with some shaping). #5 fairway also required some significant fill, and #11 was a big construction job. But 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 didn't take much other than filling tee and greens sites, and digging bunkers.

Cabot Links (where I was also heavily involved with planning and construction work) took as much artificial construction work. Rod is a genius at contouring the ground (personally, with a 'dozer), really. His work at Cabot Links will 'trick' many golfers, forever, into thinking those holes were 'found' on natural links-type-land, there. No the case at all, Cabot is more comparable to a Kingsbarns type project than any of the courses at Bandon, for example. There's way more artificial contouring in the fairways at Cabot than Sagebrush.

And, what's it matter… it's just good 

Thanks Jeff!

[Jim Nugent]

Not usually considered a great course -- and probably not quite what Tom has in mind -- but what do you guys think about Sahalee?  As I understand it, they carved the course out of the forest, cutting down vast numbers of trees to create the fairways and greens.  Not sure how much earth they moved, but they had to dramatically alter the natural environment to build the course.  

[Patrick Kiser]

From what I've read and gathered, Riviera figures into this.

[Jonathan Webb]

I would think Frederica would rank pretty high on the list.  Although I doubt many have had the chance to see or play it.

A pretty well known female golf course architect walked the property after the course was opened and couldn't believe the amount of movement in the 'lowcountry'.  

[Tim_Weiman]

From what I've read and gathered, Riviera figures into this.

Patrick,

It has been a while since I have been at Riviera, but certainly there are several holes that use the natural features, the obvious example being #18. Others included would be #2, 6, 7, 9, 12 and 18.

I don't remember many of the holes well enough, but in general Tom's suggestion of Chicago Golf Club probably fits the description better than Riviera.

[Pete Lavallee]

There was a lot of earth moved to create the 18th hole a Riviera; I believe the entire middle of the hole was originally a canyon.

[Tim_Weiman]

There was a lot of earth moved to create the 18th hole a Riviera; I believe the entire middle of the hole was originally a canyon.

Pete,

Are you talking about the landing area as opposed to the green site or the hill tee shot have to hit over?

[Kyle Henderson]

There was a lot of earth moved to create the 18th hole a Riviera; I believe the entire middle of the hole was originally a canyon.

Pete,

Are you talking about the landing area as opposed to the green site or the hill tee shot have to hit over?

Between the landing area and the green, I believe.

[Andrew Calcutt]

Could you simply define created from scratch as the number of cubic yards of dirt moved to build the features of the course?  It doesn't seem that the canvas --  flat, hillside, creek side -- matters to the definition if there was more dirt moved in creating the course. Sea side, however, seems to matter because you can't build this feature that adds so much drama to a course.

It would be beneficial to look at a list of raw numbers -- cubic yards of earth moved -- to make the best judgment. Add to that the number of yards of dirt or sand brought to the site.  In that vein, Dye's course at French Lick might be high on the "created list" because more than two million or more cubic yards of earth was moved to build a golf course. In my book it's not on the "best created list," but the reviewers seemed to like it in 2009.

Is 2 million cubic yards a big number in the industry? How much was moved to build Bayonne, Shadow Creek, and the other favorites in this thread? Would architects other than the proud engineers publish this number?



  

[Philippe Binette]

Personally, I'd vote for Capilano in British Columbia...

I remember seeing the construction pictures... it was a forest of massive, crazy massive trees... in the 1920s on a hilly site... that's much more impressive than any dozer work....

My second choice: TPC Sawagrass, great out of a swamp full of scrubs....

[archie_struthers]

 

[Bradley Anderson]

The most enjoyable rounds that I have played on "created" golf course have been on Pete Dye golf courses: Blackwolf Run, The Pete Dye Course at French Lick.

I also enjoy playing Conway Farms.

[Ben Malach]

The best course that I know well enough to submit would be The Old course at Wolf Creek in Ponoka, Alberta. It was rolling prairie before Rod Whitman came and turned it in to one of the few great courses in Alberta. I think that Wolf Point should be mentioned because from what i have seen from photos it looks amazing and a great example of what can be done on a budget to create something special on a piece of property that is not the most undulating.     

[BCrosby]

Indian Creek
Harbortown
TPC
Chechessee
Loblolly Pines

Hard to argue with Mike's list as to SE courses. Loblolly Pines should get more attention here.

Bob   

[Charlie Gallagher]

  To me, two that immediately come to mind are Wolf Point and Calusa Pines. Wolf Point did have several naturally existing holes on site because of the creek that wanders through the property, but the majority of the course was manufactured from flat land.
    I understand that the same applies to Calusa, at least in the flat nature of the land used for the course. I don't know if this is true, but I heard from a reliable source that total elevation change on the site was less than two feet before tha land was cleared. 

[Jim Nelson]

I'm a homer on this comment, but I think you have to put Southern Highlands in Las Vegas somewhere on this list.  Course was created out of rocky desert land which was transformed into a parkland course.  Not to the extent of Shadow Creek, but in some ways, it is more dramatic with scenic vistas that Shadow doesn't have.  Shadow feels claustrophobic in comparison. 

[Rees Milikin]

Battle Creek (former Sequatchie Valley Golf Club) in S. Pittsburg, TN. 

Just look at the before and after pictures in this guide: http://issuu.com/kingcollinsgolf/docs/booklet_complete_reduced

[Mark Hissey]

2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, Half of 11, 12, 13, some of 15, 18, Bye hole at Sebonack.

The front nine at Friars.

[Rob Collins]

Battle Creek (former Sequatchie Valley Golf Club) in S. Pittsburg, TN. 

Just look at the before and after pictures in this guide: http://issuu.com/kingcollinsgolf/docs/booklet_complete_reduced

Each hole at Sequatchie/Battle Creek was a large earthmoving job.  Holes 1-6 were all filled with dirt from the two lakes that we created and 7-9 were balanced, but a lot of dirt was moved on each of the latter group in order to make the drainage and strategy work. It was a fun project. 99.9% of the design work was done in the field...

[Tim Gavrich]

I've played a handful of Donald Ross' courses and my top two--Timuquana and Brunswick CC--may be the flattest golf courses I've ever played. The green complexes are completely built up and they are just phenomenal. So, those two courses get my vote, in particular because they could be pretty much exactly replicated on big enough flat sites. To me that's more valuable than a course like a Whistling Straits, which while impressive (I'm assuming, having never been there), seems gratuitous by comparison.

[Rees Milikin]

I've played a handful of Donald Ross' courses and my top two--Timuquana and Brunswick CC--may be the flattest golf courses I've ever played. The green complexes are completely built up and they are just phenomenal. So, those two courses get my vote, in particular because they could be pretty much exactly replicated on big enough flat sites. To me that's more valuable than a course like a Whistling Straits, which while impressive (I'm assuming, having never been there), seems gratuitous by comparison.

This weekend I am going to be in the Brunswick area visiting my grandmother, is Brunswick CC worth trying to play?  If so, how well did DIII's renovation follow with the original Ross design?

[Willie_Dow]

Looking at "FLORIDA GOLF" Fall 2013  with Pete Dye on the cover, there is a perfect description of his Only "Short Course".

It is a perfect example of a created "Best Course":  THE MOORINGS YACHT AND COUNTRY CLUB in VERO BEACH

First time I played it I remembered every hole, and they were certainly "created out of 70 acres of property that included a large yet unspoiled peninsula that jutted out into the middle of the beautiful Indian River Lagoon".

[Ben Kodadek]

I've played a handful of Donald Ross' courses and my top two--Timuquana and Brunswick CC--may be the flattest golf courses I've ever played. The green complexes are completely built up and they are just phenomenal. So, those two courses get my vote, in particular because they could be pretty much exactly replicated on big enough flat sites. To me that's more valuable than a course like a Whistling Straits, which while impressive (I'm assuming, having never been there), seems gratuitous by comparison.

This weekend I am going to be in the Brunswick area visiting my grandmother, is Brunswick CC worth trying to play?  If so, how well did DIII's renovation follow with the original Ross design?

Definitely make time to get in 36 at BCC.   Dan Hogan is a great guy and I'm sure he'll do anything he can to accommodate you.   The "wings" on a number of the greens are pretty wild.   Cheap beer too.   

[Rees Milikin]

I've played a handful of Donald Ross' courses and my top two--Timuquana and Brunswick CC--may be the flattest golf courses I've ever played. The green complexes are completely built up and they are just phenomenal. So, those two courses get my vote, in particular because they could be pretty much exactly replicated on big enough flat sites. To me that's more valuable than a course like a Whistling Straits, which while impressive (I'm assuming, having never been there), seems gratuitous by comparison.

This weekend I am going to be in the Brunswick area visiting my grandmother, is Brunswick CC worth trying to play?  If so, how well did DIII's renovation follow with the original Ross design?

Definitely make time to get in 36 at BCC.   Dan Hogan is a great guy and I'm sure he'll do anything he can to accommodate you.   The "wings" on a number of the greens are pretty wild.   Cheap beer too.   

I will definitely see about trying to make time to check it out and thanks for the info.

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