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Jay Flemma

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The Six Continent Club
« on: January 09, 2014, 11:19:21 AM »
How many living architects have designed on all six continents? (Yes, I'm excluding Antarctica:)

Off the top of my head there's Smyers and Jones, Jr., Doak...has Gil?  
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 11:36:57 AM »
How many living architects have designed on all six continents? (Yes, I'm excluding Antarctica:)

Off the top of my head there's Smyers and Jones, Jr., Doak...has Gil?  

Interesting question. South America and Africa will be the ones where most firms miss out. Big signature firms are the most likely - although it's hard to argue that such a firm represents a single architect. RTJ2 has as you say. Nicklaus too. Player has everywhere but Australasia as far as I can see. Palmer doesn't have anything in Africa, I don't think.

I'm not aware that Steve Smyers has done anything in Asia or South America. Tom has a course in construction in China, but nothing in play yet in Asia and nothing in South America to my knowledge. Gil, nothing in Australasia or Africa (or Asia, if you don't count renovations).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jay Flemma

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Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 11:57:38 AM »
China counts as Asia, Adam.

Smyers has at least one on all continents, though I don't have chapter and verse his instant, I will shortly.  My guess is South America will be the stumbling block for most, with Africa coming in second, but you never know.  I'm going to check on Pete Dye next...UPDATE: Nope, nothing in South America or Australia either.  Does Israel count as Africa, BTW? 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 12:01:55 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 12:00:34 PM »
China counts as Asia, Adam.

I'm aware of that. That's why I said 'nothing in play yet'.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 12:07:50 PM »
Just checking:)  Jim Engh hasn't done all six either.  Player is a good guess...maybe even Palmer.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 12:09:37 PM »
Israel is technically Asia. Caesarea was done in Pete's name by Tim Liddy; Pete never visited the site.

I don't think there's an echt Pete Dye course in Europe actually. All the Dye stuff over this side of the pond is Perry, PB or Cynthia.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 12:13:12 PM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 12:22:31 PM »
You;re right...Pete said no Europe (he doesn't even consider London his, but Perry's), no Asia, no Australia, no S.A.  "We're stay at homers!" he said.  "We sure are!" shouted Alice:):) 
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 12:25:45 PM »
Also it should be noted that the London course doesn't exist yet. It might, in five years time. But then again, it might not - they don't have a planning consent yet.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 12:34:04 PM »
How many living architects have designed on all six continents? (Yes, I'm excluding Antarctica:)

Off the top of my head there's Smyers and Jones, Jr., Doak...has Gil?  

What Doak course is in Africa?

Bart

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 01:09:18 PM »
I have been lucky to play golf on six continents, but I've only built courses on four of them.  [The project in China is built now, so I'm counting Asia.]  I would love to build a project in South America someday [no jet lag!!!], but Africa is probably a long shot.  The only projects I've ever been contacted about in Africa, did not even get as far as going to look at a site.

Hugh Alison did courses in Europe, America, Japan, South Africa and also routed Huntingdale in Australia ... I don't think he ever visited South America.  That or Africa is the missing link for most.

Honestly, at this point in my career, I would feel sorry for anybody who had worked on all six continents  :)  but the ones who have probably didn't spend too much time there themselves, anyway.

Kyle Casella

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 01:12:05 PM »
Greg Norman is just missing South America, but it looks like he has two under construction: http://www.gngcd.com/portfolio.php


Matt Schiffer

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Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 01:19:41 PM »
Ron Fream (my former boss) has worked on all six, new courses in Asia, Europe, N. America and Africa, renovations in Australia and Argentina...
Providing freelance design, production and engineering for GCAs around the world! http://greengrassengineering.com/landing/

Jim McCann

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Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 02:26:26 PM »
Matt

I mentioned in passing to gca command and control some time ago that Ron Fream would make a very interesting FEATURE INTERVIEW  interviewee as he's probably forgotten more about golf course architecture than many of us have ever learned...

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2014, 02:45:17 PM »
Fream has a completed Project of eighteen holes in Argentina, Pilar golf Club. Jay mentioned Gil maybe, does he have six completed projects, if I remember right most of his work has been in renovation and his completed projects were around that many but the shift is now going to eighteen hole projects. Norman has twelve holes completed  in the South of Argentina but not eighteen as of yet.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 07:51:24 PM »
Fream has a completed Project of eighteen holes in Argentina, Pilar golf Club. Jay mentioned Gil maybe, does he have six completed projects, if I remember right most of his work has been in renovation and his completed projects were around that many but the shift is now going to eighteen hole projects. Norman has twelve holes completed  in the South of Argentina but not eighteen as of yet.

Randy:

What sort of project is happening in the south of Argentina?  That sounds like an interesting place to work.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 08:08:54 PM »
Fream has a completed Project of eighteen holes in Argentina, Pilar golf Club. Jay mentioned Gil maybe, does he have six completed projects, if I remember right most of his work has been in renovation and his completed projects were around that many but the shift is now going to eighteen hole projects. Norman has twelve holes completed  in the South of Argentina but not eighteen as of yet.

Randy:

What sort of project is happening in the south of Argentina?  That sounds like an interesting place to work.

Just being in Argentina is great.  Buenos Aires is one of the world's great cities.  The Mendoza area is supposed to be fantastic.   I was there six years ago for a big anniversary trip and would love to get back.  

The peso was 3=$1 then, now it's 4=$1.  Very affordable.  Great steaks and Malbec!

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 10:33:05 PM »
Fream has a completed Project of eighteen holes in Argentina, Pilar golf Club. Jay mentioned Gil maybe, does he have six completed projects, if I remember right most of his work has been in renovation and his completed projects were around that many but the shift is now going to eighteen hole projects. Norman has twelve holes completed  in the South of Argentina but not eighteen as of yet.

Randy:

What sort of project is happening in the south of Argentina?  That sounds like an interesting place to work.
Tom,
It is beautiful country, both the south of Chile and Argentina (refered to as, Patagonia in both countries), words canīt describe it but maybe inland Oregon and Western Canada come close. Anyways, about ten years ago after many years of going round and round Nicklaus did one for a former friend or neighbor to get his foot in the door in Argentina. I never understood how the economics were going to work but like you said thatīs only our concern when asked. Anyways, the course has struggled and about five years ago they got a hotel group in and built the hotel and it opened. Its empty ten months a year, as is the golf course. The owner started a construction company with the shaper and built a couple of other Nicklaus courses in Argentina (two) and from those profits kept the course open and in good condition. But itīs been three or four years since they have done anything else and the construction company has dissolved after trying to get other projects but without results. The project is in a beautiful area called San Martin but like I said, it always seemed to be hanging on by a thread. The Norman project is across the street and that one really blew my mind of...How and Why. They took about five to seven years, going forward, stopping going forward, stopping and started construction about three years ago. I walked it after the rough shaping was done and then more starts and stops. Last I heard they were about to open 9 or the full twelve but have not heard about the other six going forward but that doesnīt mean it isnīt happening, i just donīt know. But, I do know sales are slow and what they have sold has been mostly been to Brazilians and a few Americans. I had two signed projects within an hour of San Martin but with more logical initial investment cost and both connected with ski resorts, so imo better business plans. One was a great piece of natural land and I featured some pictures on this site and wanted to do Wall to Wall fescue, great soil, water above the property where you would not need a pump station, sand on site, Sandy loam on site and gravel about a meter below the surface, lots of rain, good natural movement ect. I was hoping to do something special in the 1.5 million range, push up greens and the only big cost was irrigation. The other project was situated in a huge national forest but not categorized as national forest but the trees are close to the size of Redwoods (150ft). That one scared me a little, especially in relation to the routing through these trees. Not sure if we were going to be able to create corridors wide enough to get enough sun to grow good grass. Anyways, the environmental groups including Green Peace got organized and raised holy hell, including barricading the project and taking control and spray painting the sales center. The first project I mentioned couldnīt get approval to cut one tree and so itīs dead and they are looking at doing six holes (homemade) par threeīs in a flat area without trees and recently started to develop lots. The other project canīt seem to get any approvals but havenīt given up but the investment group split up and now is in the hands of one owner. Not completely dead but in critical condition, I did get the design done before the ceiling caved in. In fact, it was my last design to date. The right land, the right owner and a strong marketing plan that results in attracting an international market (something more than the name of a touring pro), could still work but one would still need to find a way around the environmental that are more organized and confident in their power, then ever! Could be in oneīs favor to have a JN and GN project near, as it might be enough to help consolidate a foundation of a golf destination to attract more International players to a remote location.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2014, 10:37:40 PM »
Fream has a completed Project of eighteen holes in Argentina, Pilar golf Club. Jay mentioned Gil maybe, does he have six completed projects, if I remember right most of his work has been in renovation and his completed projects were around that many but the shift is now going to eighteen hole projects. Norman has twelve holes completed  in the South of Argentina but not eighteen as of yet.

Randy:

What sort of project is happening in the south of Argentina?  That sounds like an interesting place to work.


Just being in Argentina is great.  Buenos Aires is one of the world's great cities.  The Mendoza area is supposed to be fantastic.   I was there six years ago for a big anniversary trip and would love to get back.  

The peso was 3=$1 then, now it's 4=$1.  Very affordable.  Great steaks and Malbec!
Make that 6.3 on the offical market and on the Street, what they are calling the blue dollar exchange rate is somewhere around 9.6 to 9.8 to 1

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2014, 11:12:12 PM »
Dollar exchange rate has gone up but inflation is high--not sure the dollar actually buys you more these days.

Randy, any chance you'll be in BA in late March? Will be down visiting my wife's family for spring break.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2014, 11:29:56 PM »
Carl,
Not sure, tomorrow I need to reserve ticket to go see Mom in Florida, and a preliminary look today left me leaning towards the 21st of March to the 31st. But keep in touch and I will let you know.
As for the inflation, I am not sure what is the whole purpose of this screwed up devaluation and blue dollar but some seem to think it is a way of controlling inflation in a country that has had a long time love affair with inflation. I can give you an example of somethng that might support that and I am sure there are many counter cases that prove other wise but check this out. Quality ice cream is big as you know and in 94 when the Exchange rate was 1 to 1, I was paying 8 dollars or pesos per liter. I am currently in Cordoba and stopped yesterday for a once month ice cream cone and a liter was costig 50 pesos. Divide that by the offical rate of 6.3 and your right around eight dollars. divide by the blue dollar rate and your 35 to 40 percent less.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2014, 11:07:14 AM »
Kyle Phillips might be one too.  When it comes to Nicklaus and Fazio, would any one particular guy at those firms have designed on all six continents?  I'm not sure "signature designs" by mega-corps really count when say "Bob Smith" did the south africa course while "Tom Rivers" did the south america one and all the name-brand designer did was step off the plane, wave, make a couple comments and fly home.  I'm not saying that anyone did that - but it's more in the spirit of the game to pick someone who has their individual work on every continent.

Smyers's operation is small enough that he gives significant attention to detail at all his courses worldwide, so he and Bob Jones, Jr. have definitely got all six covered.  
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2014, 11:17:25 AM »
You seem very convinced about Steve, Jay. I know he has that project in Rio in development, but I wasn't aware it was open yet. And I don't know of anything he's done in Asia.

No Fazio in Africa, Asia or South America to my knowledge. And you'd have to count the renovation of Waterville to get something in Europe.

Kyle has Europe, N America, Asia and Africa. He has a project in development in Brazil, but it's not open. And nothing in Australasia, unless he did something for RTJ2 there (and then you have the argument about attribution!)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2014, 12:36:00 PM »
Kyle Phillips might be one too.  When it comes to Nicklaus and Fazio, would any one particular guy at those firms have designed on all six continents?  I'm not sure "signature designs" by mega-corps really count when say "Bob Smith" did the south africa course while "Tom Rivers" did the south america one and all the name-brand designer did was step off the plane, wave, make a couple comments and fly home.  I'm not saying that anyone did that - but it's more in the spirit of the game to pick someone who has their individual work on every continent.

Smyers's operation is small enough that he gives significant attention to detail at all his courses worldwide, so he and Bob Jones, Jr. have definitely got all six covered.  

Jay:  How is Bobby Jones different from Nicklaus and Fazio?  He runs a big, worldwide, brand-name design firm.  He's a second-generation architect, the same as Tom Fazio.  [His father, in fact, perfected the business model of stepping off the plane and waving.]  How much time did he spend on his own South American projects, wherever they are?

I honestly don't know the answers to the questions I posed above.  But I suspect one main difference is that you've spent time with Bobby and like him, and not with the others.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2014, 02:27:34 PM »
Jay:  How is Bobby Jones different from Nicklaus and Fazio?  He runs a big, worldwide, brand-name design firm.  He's a second-generation architect, the same as Tom Fazio.  [His father, in fact, perfected the business model of stepping off the plane and waving.]  How much time did he spend on his own South American projects, wherever they are?

I honestly don't know the answers to the questions I posed above.  But I suspect one main difference is that you've spent time with Bobby and like him, and not with the others.
[/quote]
Tom,
 Way to call a spade a spade! Bobby junior has a renovation completed in Sao Pablo, Brazil and recently signed his first contract in Argentina that is not off the ground yet. He also about twelve years ago did a project in Venezuela that was completed and only lacked the sand in the bunkers but never got opened. Nothing else that I know of at least! A lot of people get excited when they step off the plane and wave hello, I got more excited when they step back into the plane and I wave good bye!!!

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Six Continent Club
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2014, 04:11:53 PM »
Tom, that is most certainly NOT the case...Bobby's operation is bobby and Bruce and for a while, Jay.  Jack and tom have huge teams of design associates. And he spends loads of hours on the sites...far more than you insinuate in your reply.  He is as diligent and dedicated as you are.  He's not a wave and fly guy at all.  
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:15:54 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner