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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #125 on: November 17, 2014, 10:14:45 AM »
I do think some skepticism is still warranted, not just for Sand Valley but for its potential effect on the Wisconsin golf landscape overall. Kohler, Erin Hills, Lawsonia, Sentry World, the courses around Wisconsin Dells, and now Sand Valley will all be places that rely heavily on intrepid out-of-towners traveling to play them. Depending on their price point and overall package, Sand Valley will inevitably end up competing in a certain bracket of that traveling-golfer market within the region. It's feasible that if the courses and accommodations are good enough, Sand Valley will increase traffic to the area overall and boost those other courses in the region. However, it's equally feasible that Sand Valley could siphon play away from other courses in its same bracket.

Sand Valley will clearly be geared toward traveling golfers with more "sophisticated" tastes - guys who care about playing architecturally notable courses and are willing to pay a hefty green fee at a walking-only resort. Up to this point, Wisconsin's most noteworthy public destinations for that crowd could easily be played on a single trip without ever venturing too far from the Milwaukee area. Now, here comes a resort that's a little further off the beaten path and that will offer, presumably, somewhere between 2 and 5 courses within the next 5-10 years. As a result, those taking the average weeklong Wisconsin golf trip may have to make a choice about which of the "big courses" to leave off their itinerary if they don't feel like scrambling wildly to play 8 or 10 courses in a week.

Maybe those golfers will skip a round or two at Kohler, it's probably no great tragedy. But it does seem to me that Sand Valley will make Wisconsin an unusual golf destination. Thinking of Erin Hills, Kohler, and Sand Valley, I wonder if there is another location in the US with three resorts that are:
 
* High-dollar
* Traveling-golfer reliant
* Walking-only (at least at each resort's most noteworthy course)
* Located in the same general geographic region but just far enough apart that travel between them is inconvenient
* Located in an area with generally little out-of-region tourism otherwise

It's certainly an unusual market if not a totally unique one, and I can see the possibility that another major resort geared toward a similar target audience will oversaturate it. It seems that there's an obvious chance these three competing destinations cannibalize business from each other. However, the bigger worry for me would be the little guy - does Lawsonia become a bit of an afterthought for the target market as the cheaper course with cart tracks all over the place and lacking fabulous onsite accommodations and stuck in the middle of nowhere?

I don't necessarily THINK that Sand Valley is going to be the tipping point that oversaturates the Wisconsin high-end traveling golf market, but it's at least a possibility right? My hope is that it will bring more attention to the region and more money to the little guys - not just Lawsonia but some of the other daily fee courses in Wisconsin that deserve a little more recognition. But I can also see the potential of those less expensive, less heralded courses becoming further marginalized by tourists who represent a smaller but crucial percentage of their overall business. It'll be interesting to follow.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #126 on: November 17, 2014, 12:28:21 PM »
Jason, just for clarification on the 'inconvenient drive times', it is about the same drive time from EH to Kohler, or EH to Green Lake Lawsonia, or Green Lake to Sand Valley.  Those drives are all in the time span of about one hour and fifteen minutes.  If a rabid golfer was so motivated on a long summer day, I could see one playing early morning EH, mid aft, Lawsonia and twilight Sand Valley.   ;)

Phil, I can't vouch for the quality, but there are a few interesting looking roadhouse restaurants within 10 minutes of SV in all directions from the course site.  I fellow wouldn't go too wrong snapping up a vacation cottage up along the Pentwell Res., or one of the smallish lakes that dot the area, or just some 40 acre hunting land.  But, if and until Keiser gets his F&B and lodging situation squared away, a guy won't starve up there.  ;D

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #127 on: November 17, 2014, 01:16:43 PM »
RJ, there's no doubt that a rabid golfer COULD do that. If I still lived in Madison, I probably wouldn't hesitate to play 36 at Sand Valley on a day trip. But Sand Valley's business model will require and expect tourist play. As a tourist, I don't generally travel to a place so that I can drive all over hell while I'm there.

My only real point is that it comes down to a simple question of supply and demand. Is demand for high end resort golf in Wisconsin high enough to justify another high end destination course? Will demand increase simply through the construction of another must-see golf destination some 90 minutes from the others in the area? And if there isn't quite enough demand, then what happens?

Hopefully there's enough demand. I don't doubt that there is. I just wonder what happens if there isn't. It could be a really good thing - maybe Kohler and Erin Hills see a drop in play and subsequently drop their prices, which would be great for me. I'm just interested to see what happens.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #128 on: November 17, 2014, 02:01:04 PM »
Jason, a couple of things strike me about your last comment. 

Both Erin Hills and SV will have developers and principle backers behind their enterprise that have deep enough pockets to sustain marginally small numbers of paying golfers.   Erin Hills will have the cache or world focus when all eyes turn on it for the US Open, that SV will never have.  SV in that regard will have to be more of a cult following.  One thing I am not sure of is that if I understand it correctly, thee are a number of founding "members" who ponied up $$$ just on Keiser's reputation to do something spectacular and the unique sand barrens nature of the property, in anticipation that something special would get done there.  ERin Hills seems fully reliant on  CCFAD model of intrepid golfers, just as the American Club courses rely on that traffic.  But, SV will have members, and presumably some form of dues, and some system of parcelling out tee times on the semi private basis.  If a membership yearly dues system covers basic maintenance costs, and green fees and other F&B and lodging cover operational expenses, maybe Keiser can afford to just let it break even.   ;D ;)

This also raises questions in my mind, perhaps more suited for another thread; but is it possible to get enabling legislation for some version of what is used by donors in living land trusts for public land preservation, where after the developer and owner depart the scene a successor entity can operate within a not-for-profit basis if the ongoing activity is used for the public good (healthful recreation and promotion of fellowship) and whose yearly excess earnings are kept not for profit but designated for some charitable designation, health, welfare, education?

All these aging ultra wealthy golf Impresarios can't take it with them, but could bequeath it for a wider general public good, that could help preserve the game and lifestyle activity they love and have found pleasurable and beneficial in their lifetimes, rather than just leave it to generate more corporate profit that accrues all the benefits to a very small segment of society. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #129 on: November 17, 2014, 04:46:25 PM »

This also raises questions in my mind, perhaps more suited for another thread; but is it possible to get enabling legislation for some version of what is used by donors in living land trusts for public land preservation, where after the developer and owner depart the scene a successor entity can operate within a not-for-profit basis if the ongoing activity is used for the public good (healthful recreation and promotion of fellowship) and whose yearly excess earnings are kept not for profit but designated for some charitable designation, health, welfare, education?

All these aging ultra wealthy golf Impresarios can't take it with them, but could bequeath it for a wider general public good, that could help preserve the game and lifestyle activity they love and have found pleasurable and beneficial in their lifetimes, rather than just leave it to generate more corporate profit that accrues all the benefits to a very small segment of society. 

Interesting you mention this, as two good friends of mine work both in Wisconsin and nationally on land trust issues, and deal with these sorts of covenants all the time. I'll ask one of them; I don't know of any state laws that would disallow that, but am hardly an expert. I know of some similar arrangements here in the greater Madison area aimed at permanently preserving farmland that might otherwise get developed into another use.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #130 on: November 17, 2014, 06:57:56 PM »
Jason,

Based on Bandon, the real worry IMO is that Erin Hills and Whistling Straits end up losing business, not Lawsonia.  Most guys who go to the American Club have never even heard of Lawsonia and would get their Brooks Brothers tightey whitey's in a serious bunch over the whole middle class feel of the place.  If Sand Valley ends up with 4 or 5 courses that are all highly rated, have better turf, competitive pricing, and quality lodging and food you can bet that many people won't feel the need to ever leave the property.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 01:35:19 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BCowan

Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #131 on: November 17, 2014, 08:03:51 PM »
Tom Doak:
"The masses would perceive it as substandard."

That depends on where you are!  Can anyone here recall anyone coming back from Sand Hills or Bandon Dunes and complaining about the "substandard" turf?  [I've only heard it once or twice, and it was from someone who was emphatic before they saw the course about fescue being the wrong choice.]

I think the fescue works better at Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes because they're isolated, and there's nothing else to compare them to.  On the other hand, when High Pointe was practically across the street from The Bear, or Spanish Bay from Pebble, or Whistling Straits from Blackwolf Run, and when the green fees are high, the paying customer wants to know why they didn't use the "better" turf next door.

Fescue will work in heat [I've seen the Sand Hills when it's 100] or humidity [not many dry days in the U.K.], but not heat AND humidity.  It's also not worth a crap unless the soil is truly sandy, and I'm not sure the soils at Whistling Straits were suitable.  But, I still think they should mow it tighter and see.  If it doesn't hold out, then overseed it with bent like everyone else wants them to.

RJ:  One of the most brilliant decisions they made at Wild Horse was how to grass the place.  They used the bluegrass fairway mix you discussed to address divot-healing concerns, but switched to fescue 30-40 yards in front of the greens, so you can play all the links shots around the greens which I talked about.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4902.5/wap2.html
  
    This is copied from an old post (see above).  It makes sense with having fescue 30-40 yards short of every green.  I don't think there is too much High end retail, i don't know if there is room for a 3rd Walking only course (EH, WS) stand alone until the others get built.  The 2nd course at SV will open 1-2 years after the 1st?  If the green fees are low ($100) the first two years I think he will do well until the other courses get built.  thoughts about walking only with 1 golf course at SV, when 2 others exist (EH,WS)?  Are there enough walkers?  
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:20:04 PM by BCowan »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #132 on: November 18, 2014, 10:43:29 AM »
Jud, you're probably right. I just think it'll be interesting to watch the Wisconsin destination golf market sort itself out once Sand Valley is opened.

Ben, I also think the walking-only nature of Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, and now Sand Valley will mean something within that market. I don't know if it's a boon to them or if it will lead to travelers skipping one because of tired legs. I do see a trend beginning to develop nationally in which high-end golf is becoming more synonymous with walking, and I think that makes sense as part of a business model. Part of the expectation of a "high-end" experience, regardless of industry, is that you're going to get something different and something more satisfying that won't necessarily appeal to everyone, but will appeal to the person with more "discerning" tastes. I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that high end customers will find the experience of playing golf in a special place to be far more satisfying when their legs have that perfectly tired and relaxed feeling at the end of the day, and when they've moved around the course at a pace that lets them take it all in, and when they haven't seen ruts from cart traffic or listened to squealing tires zipping around the course.

Most people won't cognizantly think "Wow, it sure was nice being on a course with no carts!" in the same way that after a dinner at a nice restaurant I don't generally think "Wow, that slow service sure was nice!" But I do think most people who sign up for such an experience will find themselves more relaxed and satisfied when they take a load off over dinner after a day of walking the course. And when you're selling an overall experience of golf, lodging, and dining, as opposed to just a quick trip around a course, there's science to back up that the food tastes better after you've burned the calories from walking all day, and the beds feel more comfortable and you sleep better when you go to bed truly fatigued. It's a great recipe for customers who leave with the feeling that they've had an overall experience that demands a return trip.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Sand Valley first course architects, and second course architects
« Reply #133 on: November 18, 2014, 10:10:07 PM »
Jason,

    I agree with a lot of what you wrote.  It is great that all the courses will be routed for walking.   I just think the distinguished pallet will wait till the 2nd and 3rd course gets built.  I'm curious the folks that walk WS, if they ride a buggy at the other tracks.  If the price is right at SV the first couple of years, he will get the $50-$100 a round retail crowd until the 2nd and 3rd courses get built.  Once he gets a 3rd course i see this being very very successful.  MK is disproving that exclusivity is the only sell... ;)  
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:38:23 PM by BCowan »

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
How long is the golf season again out their in WI?   ;D
It's all about the golf!

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
This year? About four months -- or so it seemed.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.

Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:

"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Gary Sato

Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.

Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:

"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240

I don't see this teaser meaning the Sand valley architect.   Keiser has a number of golf course developments and it could be anything?  My guess is the Streamsong joint venture?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.

Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:

"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240

Special "guests"?
as in plural?
hmmmm.......
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.

Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:

"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240

Why would you follow a guy who uses Twitter this way?

The suspense is not killing me....
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

K Rafkin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.

Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:

"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240

Why would you follow a guy who uses Twitter this way?

The suspense is not killing me....

He is self promoting.  Is there another way to use twitter?

Daniel Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
And the 2nd course goes to... David McLay Kidd. On GC right now...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Given the properties he's had, the results have been mixed.

There were other choices available.
One architect in particular who has consistently delivered premier product for whom it would've been virtually a home game.
or perhaps a talented, hungry architect/associate waiting for his first great property.

Superior routing?
Punishment for handing out a 0?
Better interview?
More time?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 08:10:16 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
David Kidd is
going to walk through the routing on Golf Channel at approx 7:35a central.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looks like we'll know the designer of the second course come tomorrow morning.

Via Matt Ginella on Twitter:

"Tomorrow on @GCMorningDrive (7-9amET), special guests stop by to break news on a new course in Mike Keiser's portfolio. Any guesses?"

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/539875759259914240

Why would you follow a guy who uses Twitter this way?

The suspense is not killing me....

He is self promoting.  Is there another way to use twitter?


Seriously? He's promoting that he had a story of interest to break.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
And the 2nd course goes to... David McLay Kidd. On GC right now...

Wow that's really cool...I would say slightly out of the box.  Maybe half a foot out.  Perhaps his success at Gamble Sands played a part as well.  Will be very interested to see how it turns out.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
The courses I've played designed by DMK, I thought, were really good to great. Sure, there will be some disappointment that Tom Doak didn't receive the commission as it is close to his home base and his portfolio is outstanding, but it's not exactly like MK hired Fazio or Nicklaus for a "signature" design.   
H.P.S.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
David Kidd is
going to walk through the routing on Golf Channel at approx 7:35a central.

Watched it. I'll never get those five minutes back.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Very surprised that he got the gig over Mr Doak, strange decision considering the reviews over their respective works, and history of Doak with Keiser.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Watched it. I'll never get those five minutes back.
[/quote]

No, they didn't get into much detail.  But they had breaking news - Tiger was practicing his putting.

The things I learned from the 2 segments were:
1) Keiser visited Gamble Sands and loved it.  That gave Kidd the chance.
2) Kidd's course will open in 2018, 1 year after Coore and Crenshaw's opens in 2017.
3) Kidd was able to pick the land he wanted (other than C&Cs). He chose a parcel that contains a V shaped ridge. The holes will play on both sides of the ridge. I think he said the ridge was 80 feet high in places.