[SL_Solow]

Mike's last comment is an improvement over his prior comments.  How many commenting on this thread, other than the Supers, have been involved in working in this area in any capacity?  I have served as Greens Chair  (or assistant) since 1995 or so.  I was fortunate enough to have a legendary Super who is credited with beginning the "naturalization" movement in the US and who we retired after 48 years.  Now I work with an outstanding young man.  I also co-chair our local association's Turf grass committee and work with Supers throughout the area.  I confess they are my favorite people in golf.  Their biggest obstacle is members/patrons who profess to know everything about growing grass and course conditioning but are really only concerned with playing when they want and having green speeds at a "bragging rights" level regardless of the weather etc.  Additionally, those members always complain that the Super spends too much while invariably complaining about course conditions. Some of the comments here, that almost any Super should be able to do the job belie threads that are ongoing, not to mention issues we have discussed for a long time.  Read the current thread about the effect of cold weather on the new strains of bemuda.  Think back to a couple of summers ago when the midwest and east face prolonged periods of drought coupled with long streaks or temperatures above 90 in the day with minimall cooling at night.  Any "pro" can handle that?  Those are the times that one finds out how good a superintendent can be.  It is also the time that proper support from the green committeee or owner becomes vital.
 I agree with Tom's and others' comments that some Supers are prone to making ill advised design modifications but they are in a small minority.  Additionally, this is where a good Greens Committee can step in by limiting the amount of work done absent the help of a consulting architect.
  We conduct annual seminars for Greens' Chairs and Supers in an effort to help the Chairs act in a way that enhances cooperation and allows the Supers to do their jobs.  We emphasize that the Committee's main roles are to hire a Super, create standards and objectives, obtain a budget which matches the standards and objectives, act as a liason to the members and stay out of the Super's way so that he can do his job.  At the end of each season it is time to evaluate the job and make adjustments.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The course should not depend on a great green keeper. It should be maintained such that any capable pro can handle the job.

Wow thats going to take some beating for "most stupid comment of the year"

[Neil White]

The course should not depend on a great green keeper. It should be maintained such that any capable pro can handle the job.

Wow thats going to take some beating for "most stupid comment of the year"

Already?

But it's only the 7th January...... 

[JMEvensky]

Can a club have a great Green Keeper without a good/great Green Chairman?

[SL_Solow]

I believe it can but it makes the Greenkeeper's job harder.  Many "great" Chairmen were made that way by watching and learning from the Greenkeeper.  One of the real problems is that most clubs turn over their chirmen just when thay are learning the job.  But its a great question as the ideal situation is where the Committee and the Greenkeeper work together with a common vision and an apprpriate division of responsibility.

[Neil White]

Can a club have a great Green Keeper without a good/great Green Chairman?

What qualifies as a good green chair?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Of course. Some clubs dont even have a greens chairmen.

[JMEvensky]

I believe it can but it makes the Greenkeeper's job harder.  Many "great" Chairmen were made that way by watching and learning from the Greenkeeper.  One of the real problems is that most clubs turn over their chirmen just when thay are learning the job.  But its a great question as the ideal situation is where the Committee and the Greenkeeper work together with a common vision and an apprpriate division of responsibility.

Pretty much what I was getting at.Theirs is a symbiotic relationship--each can help or hurt the other.

[mike_malone]

If a great green keeper is the exception then there is a problem. I recall Tom Paul saying so many courses were always in the emergency room. I believe we need to step away from the edge and dial back the stresses so unforeseen weather or unpredictable nature don't force courses over the edge.We should not run golf courses that only a rare and expensive keeper can handle.
As was stated above it is the average golfer who creates the crazy expectations for green keepers. I doubt many places even have job descriptions and standards of performance for their employees. We want to be free to change our standards to fit the latest fad.
A great green keeper should not be a wizard but a competent person who manages his shop and delivers the best course under reasonable conditions.

[SL_Solow]

Adrian;   Unless he owns the course, the Super reports to somebody,regardless of title.  That person is the defacto Greens Chair.

[Dan Herrmann]

Mayday - you're right about crazy expectations.  People grumble when our course sees deep-tine aeration with hand-brushed-in soil amendments.  They don't often realize that that type of "nuts and bolts" work sets the foundation for turf that can withstand crazy weather.

And your last sentence talks about "reasonable".  I wonder how many Green Keepers are working with ancient equipment that is prone to failure?  A lot of us had a chuckle over Merion's fairway roller machine, but the truth is that that's complete fantasy for most courses that can't even afford a good fairway mower.  

Like all of us, it's all about doing a lot more with a lot less these days.

[Joe Hancock]

If a great green keeper is the exception then there is a problem.

Mayday,

I disagree. In every profession, there will be varying degrees of competence/ ability/ professionalism/ etc. Green keeping is no different; there are the great ones, and there are some who really aren't good at it, but have found a way to survive. As an aside, the GCSAA program, "Certified Golf Course Superintendent" doesn't guarantee that the person fits into the category of "great" or even "good"; it just means they've invested some time and money to pass an exam and have their golf course examined by peers who want them to succeed, of course.

When I have the chance, I encourage supers to improve their speaking and presentation skills. It prepares them to feel like they belong in the boardroom, which is where they can exert some influence on the direction of a club. The well-heeled will listen if they hear a professionally delivered message, and that can help in the whole "King's shilling/ King's bidding" thing. Sometimes, the King doesn't know what's best for the kingdom.....they need a trusted adviser....the knowledgeable, well-spoken, professional green keeper.

Joe

[mike_malone]

Joe,
Compared to you I'm a piker but I believe we need to cut green keepers a break and consider the majority to be great because they get the job done. I'm opposed to "great" being reserved for a few special people.
I have heard many criticisms of green keepers from friends who base their opinion completely on their own perception or what their buddies say. Many of these seem mean spirited to me.
Lower the bar,I say. It is just a golf course.

[Jon Wiggett]

I have always believed that the quality of the course reflects the quality of the greenkeeping and that the quality of the greenkeeping reflects the quality of the greens committee. A good committee can make an ordinary greenkeeper great and visa versa. It takes both committee and greenkeeper to be right to make it work.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Joe,
Compared to you I'm a piker but I believe we need to cut green keepers a break and consider the majority to be great because they get the job done. I'm opposed to "great" being reserved for a few special people.
I have heard many criticisms of green keepers from friends who base their opinion completely on their own perception or what their buddies say. Many of these seem mean spirited to me.
Lower the bar,I say. It is just a golf course.

I disagreed with your first statement but I agree with this.

[Jerry Kluger]

Today's greenskeepers have certainly benefitted from the great strides made through research programs at universities as well as improved equipment.  The internet has certainly opened up a great deal of information for the greenskeepers of today so they can understand how to deal with any problems they face.  But what was the reason for what was done during the second half of the twentieth century when it became far too common that architectural features disappeared, trees were planted and courses became green, sloppy and slow?  There were courses that did not follow the trend but as we see the great restoration work being done today it certainly makes one wonder why no one saw that trend while it was happening and tried to do something to stop it.

[Sean_A]

Whenever I hear about greenkeepers and professional I think about teachers.  It seems to me both professions are not controlled by the professionals.  There is an element of distrust with all professions, but it seems like the reason it is open season on teachers and greenkeepers is because they don't control thier professions.  Everybody is an expert in both fields, but most don't want to get their hands dirty to find out the truth.  

I generally think of a greenkeeper as a reflection of those running the show.  Hence the reason I would value a greenkeeper who is a visionary, thinks for himself to some degree.  In other words, those running the show should be a reflection of the greenkeeper if the club really thinks they have a goodun'  I want to hear the keeper's ideas and see him try stuff out.  I sure as hell am not interested in the constant striving to get greens quicker or make sure the bunkers are raked perfectly. Surely, a greenkeeper should add more value than and status quo to a club?  And I don't mean in terms of architecture, but in maintenance.  However, who can deny maintenance is the 1st cousin of architecture?

Ciao    

[Steve Okula]

Yale is a pretty good example of the scenario highlighted above where a long time Green Keeper was given the authority to make architectural changes that flew in the face of what Mac/Raynor had intended. On the flip side the golf course has had original features and playing characteristics restored by the very capable and talented current Green Keeper Scott Ramsay over the last ten years. Lucky for the members that Scott's vision continues to evolve as time marches on.

I second that. I visited Scott at Yale last year, and I have never met a GCS more acutely aware of the history and architecture of his course, or who does more to restore and preserve it.

[Steve Okula]

If a great green keeper is the exception then there is a problem.

Mayday,

I disagree. In every profession, there will be varying degrees of competence/ ability/ professionalism/ etc. Green keeping is no different; there are the great ones, and there are some who really aren't good at it, but have found a way to survive. As an aside, the GCSAA program, "Certified Golf Course Superintendent" doesn't guarantee that the person fits into the category of "great" or even "good"; it just means they've invested some time and money to pass an exam and have their golf course examined by peers who want them to succeed, of course.

When I have the chance, I encourage supers to improve their speaking and presentation skills. It prepares them to feel like they belong in the boardroom, which is where they can exert some influence on the direction of a club. The well-heeled will listen if they hear a professionally delivered message, and that can help in the whole "King's shilling/ King's bidding" thing. Sometimes, the King doesn't know what's best for the kingdom.....they need a trusted adviser....the knowledgeable, well-spoken, professional green keeper.

Joe

I agree with what you say, but it's incomplete.

Above all the GCS should be able to write effectively. People can always misconstrue what you say verbally, and memories are faulty and subjective, but what's there in black and white cannot be denied.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

 People grumble when our course sees deep-tine aeration with hand-brushed-in soil amendments.  They don't often realize that that type of "nuts and bolts" work sets the foundation for turf that can withstand crazy weather.

Dan

very nicely put, I may have to steal that one;)

[Lester George]

Well said Tom Doak.

Lester

[Adam Warren]

In the case of having a great Greenkeeper, a great green chair/committee generally stays out of their way.

[John Kavanaugh]

In the case of having a great Greenkeeper, a great green chair/committee generally stays out of their way.

And a great greenskeeper should only been seen at the end of the day.  Preferably at a local bar.

[David Royer]

As green chair I always have our supers back.  The nonsense and ill informed commentary is always amazing. I've learned so much from our super.  Despite the occasional stuff I recommend you reach out and get to know your team so you can benefit from their knowledge base.

[Jon Wiggett]

And a great greenskeeper should only been seen at the end of the day.  Preferably at a local bar.

and the best members are those who pay their fees but never play

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