[Tom_Doak]

I am not going to begin to tell anyone which tee box they should play from .

Why is everyone being so politically correct about THIS issue, of all the others where they aren't?

Architects cannot afford to be so politically correct in regard to tees.  We place the tees, so we suggest where golfers will play from.  I suspect some of the reason for courses with six tees per hole is political correctness, i.e. giving the players a ton of options.  It's also a cop out, so that when people don't enjoy themselves or hold up the field, you can just say that they played from the wrong tee markers.  But in reality the designer is still at least partly at fault for providing that option to begin with.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am not going to begin to tell anyone which tee box they should play from .

Why is everyone being so politically correct about THIS issue, of all the others where they aren't?

Architects cannot afford to be so politically correct in regard to tees.  We place the tees, so we suggest where golfers will play from.  I suspect some of the reason for courses with six tees per hole is political correctness, i.e. giving the players a ton of options.  It's also a cop out, so that when people don't enjoy themselves or hold up the field, you can just say that they played from the wrong tee markers.  But in reality the designer is still at least partly at fault for providing that option to begin with.

Because it is all about the money.  Golfers need high handicaps to compete. I promise you that if courses were rerated so if you moved up your handicap went up with it you would see a drastic change.  Also if you allowed golfers to post two strokes higher for finishing under four hours the time it takes to play would also drop.  We have a great game being driven by a broken system.

I think we all have enough real world experience to prove that just because you massage your handicap you are not a bad person.

[John Kavanaugh]

This would be my proposal.  Add one stroke to your adjusted score for each 100 yds you have moved up from where your handicap is currently established.  On top of this add 1 stroke for each 15 minute time period that you play under 4 hours.  Everyone has more fun, everyone's handicap goes up and the member guest wait list is sold out.

We all keep two sets of books.  One for facebook or the bar and one for travel and money games.  Pure utopia.

[Brent Hutto]

When I switched from the 6,200 yard tees to the 5,700 yard ones at my home course (where 90% of my rounds are played) my handicap index immediately dropped two strokes. Eventually once I got used to playing there it was more like 2.5-3.0 strokes.

The course and slope ratings say those tees should be about four strokes easier for me on average. The reality is my average score is about 84 from 5,700 yards and 91 from 6,200. Since my handicap is now established at its new, lower level from the up tees I would be a fool to "Play It Back" unless someone wanted to give me at least a couple extra strokes. Which of course no one would care to do I'm sure.

[John Kavanaugh]

When I switched from the 6,200 yard tees to the 5,700 yard ones at my home course (where 90% of my rounds are played) my handicap index immediately dropped two strokes. Eventually once I got used to playing there it was more like 2.5-3.0 strokes.

The course and slope ratings say those tees should be about four strokes easier for me on average. The reality is my average score is about 84 from 5,700 yards and 91 from 6,200. Since my handicap is now established at its new, lower level from the up tees I would be a fool to "Play It Back" unless someone wanted to give me at least a couple extra strokes. Which of course no one would care to do I'm sure.

Brent, thank you for a real world example. For those of us who compete it only take one or two scores to see the damage playing it forward does to our handicaps. Combine this with a few rounds of rake and running 'and you can kiss any chance of finding a fair game good bye. You are one of the good ones. Keep it up.

[Garland Bayley]

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it.

Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about.

Only if you consider 99 % a small percentage.

Since you don't think people who haven't played a course shouldn't comment on it, how can you not being a bogey (or worse) golfer comment on what bogey golfers worry about? This worse than bogey golfer worries about the scores that prevent me from getting to the bogey average for the round. I can hope for a few pars and a rare birdie, but I don't worry about them. I suspect if I stood on the tee and worried about that I would play worse than I do.

People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense.

People want to score better.
Match play only adds another tier to scoring.
And, if you play the golfer and not the hole, you can't be a very good match player.

Which part of a prescription don't you understand? A small percent of golfers will ever score anywhere near optimally, so why should we prescribe they make every effort to do so? Do you think setting up players for failure is a way to get them to enjoy the game? To play more?


It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

So, if I could caddy for your friend and tell him that I can, through course management and swing analysis, probably produce 6 more pars and birdies in his round, he won't be interested ?  ?  ?  You either have weird friends or non-golfers for friends.

The ridiculousness of that statement has already been dealt with by others. I'll pass here.

Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to.


It does.
The more GIR, the greater your percentage of pars and birdies.
Unless you find it easier to make birdie from a bunker or water hazard or OB.


The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR.

That's absolutely not true, in fact, it's moronic.

Once again, without the experience of being a bogey golfer or worse, you are making assertions outside your area of expertise.
The high handicappers I play with make few GIR from 5750 yards. Sure, if you move us forward so we can reach the 4s with our drives, our GIR would improve. But if all we are doing is hitting tee shots and chips, why should we go out to the course. We could settle our bets at the range and short game practice area.

The high handicapper has trouble hitting it straight enough to do GIR from any range.

We're not talking about 50 handicaps.
High handicap to me is 16-24, very high, 25+

There is no such thing as a 50 handicap.

If you want the world to play golf, don't be suggesting to people that they can get GIR by playing it forward.

Not only GIR, but more pars and birdies.

If you want GIR for the high handicapper increase the par on every hole by one. He can then get close enough to the GIR in 1, 2, or 3 on previously par 3, 4, and 5 that he can get his GIR if par is 4, 5, and 6.

More moronic suggestions

Not moronic, just a recognition that people will have more fun competing match play than competing against the course by continually failing to get GIR, pars, and birdies. If you think more GIR will make them happy then make more GIR something they can accomplish.

Dostoyevsky wrote about the arrogance of the ignorant in "The Idiot" and boy did he get that right.

[Tim Bert]

The problem with the differential provided between sets of tees is that it doesn't provide enough differential for the people who you'd really like to play up the most. I have watched a few distance challenged high handicappers try to move back on courses where there are a few 160-180 yard carries from the further back set of tees and it just doesn't work.  You never get enough strokes for some people to take on people that regularly play those tees.   I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.

Since I don't play for money anyway I have derived much more enjoyment from handicapping matches with tee differential instead of stroke differential.  Assess two guys skills over a couple of rounds and it is fun and easy to play a round where you adjust teeing grounds based in their abilities.

While I would never try to tell others where they should play I can state that personally as my tee game has gone to garbage it is a joy playing courses from shorter distance where I have shots into greens with clubs I can control. I don't get the fascination with playing as long as possible. It isn't purely about green in regulation for me. I love throwing in a long hole from a back tee and facing a monster or two amongst my distance shortened round asking as it doesn't create a forced carry or situation I know I can't handle 99 of 100 times.

[Garland Bayley]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

[Sean_A]

Thirty years ago I used to argue with Pete Dye about forward tees ... he was trying to move them all up to where the average player hit 8-iron second shots like the pros do, and I said I'd rather have a variety of approach lengths [which we couldn't do for the pros, because 470 yards was driver, 8-iron for them in 1984].

I still feel the same way.  You shouldn't play ALL the tees forward, you should mix them up and play some forward and some WAY forward -- and a couple from the back tee, as long as there isn't a 230-yard carry.

Giving this average player 8 iron approach some thought...  Lets assume the average male player on average hits it 175 and an 8 iron 125. Thats 300 yards x 12 = 3600 yards.  4 par 3s at 125 = 500 yards.  4 par 5s at 455 yards = 1820 yards.  Thats a total of 5920 yards.  If an archie can't design a course of this length which provides plenty of challenge and interest for guys who hit it well beyond average length then they should get out of the business.  

Ciao

This is a 20 hole course.

Voila!

Ciao

[Philip Caccamise]

John,

If you can show where I said that about Chambers Bay, then I'll eat my hat. I hope the roads you build have more integrity than the stuff you manufacture for this website.

No worries though John, I forgive you for your slip ups.

Looks like my reading comprehension was off.  Sorry that you didn't play the first six holes at Chambers six under.  Please keep the hat, I've seen your doo.

"I was scheduled to play the Open Preview at Chambers Bay on Sunday. So I took time to practice Thursday and Friday. On Saturday I was schedule to play in a "6-6-6", 6 holes partner best ball, 6 holes scramble, 6 holes Chapman. I hate nonstandard formats, so seldom play them. Played with on of my regular partners, turned in our score having no idea how we did having next to no familiarity with typical scoring, mid week my partner calls to say we won the thing by a considerable amount. Since it was not flighted, it was the biggest prize I have ever won as we split $350 pro shot credit. I guess that was my personal best as my partner thanked me for carrying him to victory as I was 6 under net on my own ball the first six holes.

I guess I had another best as I birdied three in a row (gross) for the only time in my life in our club match play."

Here is a link to an article about a bagger from my home town.  He also claims it was just luck.


http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2013/08/30/3679224/leader-disqualified-another-named.html

The World Am is a joke. A friend of mine (one of the best Senior Ams in the country) went as a 0.9 one year when he wasn't playing well- and the furthest from a sandbagger I know- shot 69 in the 3rd round playing in the lowest index flight. He was disqualified because the official told him "I'm also a 1 and I can't shoot 69".

[Tom Fagerli]

Making birdies and pars is fun. Chipping and pitching -ok wedging- to par 4 for birdie is not fun regularly although I do enjoy it sometimes. Most golfers have an inflated opinion of their length and therefore the tees they play. MidPines is an example of this. I see wood choppers on the back tees all the time because it is "only 6500 yds". 92 here they come. If they played up front they could score some better. Oh well. I for one have moved up. I am 57 and fat. Of course it hasn't worked for me as I used to chip and pitch great and now have the yips! Guess I will play the back tees so I have an excuse for my 82!
Great idea Pat.

[Matt Day]

I went to a presentation by the owner of this course at the NGCOA show a couple of years ago.

They have taken the tee it forward principle and tailored it to their situation. Having markers on the range that correlate to recommended tees was an interesting idea.

http://www.berkshirehills.net/course/

[Patrick_Mucci]

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it.

Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about.

Only if you consider 99 % a small percentage.

Since you don't think people who haven't played a course shouldn't comment on it, how can you not being a bogey (or worse) golfer comment on what bogey golfers worry about?

One has nothing to do with the other, but, since you ask, I'll explain it to you.

I once was a bogey or worse golfer and my memory banks are still operational.
In addition, I"m heading, too quickly I might add, back to being a bogey golfer or worse.
So, I have a broad based experience with regard to being a bogey golfer.

You however, have NO experience being a par or better golfer.


This worse than bogey golfer worries about the scores that prevent me from getting to the bogey average for the round. I can hope for a few pars and a rare birdie, but I don't worry about them. I suspect if I stood on the tee and worried about that I would play worse than I do.
I don't know of any golfers, standing on a tee, who "worry" about pars/birdies.
They're usually concerned with what they see visually, from the tee and where they want to hit their tee shot.

People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense.

People want to score better.
Match play only adds another tier to scoring.
And, if you play the golfer and not the hole, you can't be a very good match player.

Which part of a prescription don't you understand?

The RX part.


A small percent of golfers will ever score anywhere near optimally, so why should we prescribe they make every effort to do so?

But, that's the inherent object of the game, to get from point "A" to point "B" in as few strokes as possible.
That's what golfers aspire to achieve.


Do you think setting up players for failure is a way to get them to enjoy the game? To play more?

Yes, the challenge to score well is the inate lure that attracts us to the game.

It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

So, if I could caddy for your friend and tell him that I can, through course management and swing analysis, probably produce 6 more pars and birdies in his round, he won't be interested ?  ?  ?  You either have weird friends or non-golfers for friends.

The ridiculousness of that statement has already been dealt with by others. I'll pass here.

It's not ridiculous at all.
Many to most high handicap golfers lack course management and club selection skills.
Injecting a low handicap golfer's mind into the game of a high handicapper will produce better results.  

Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to.

It does.
The more GIR, the greater your percentage of pars and birdies.
Unless you find it easier to make birdie from a bunker or water hazard or OB.


The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR.

That's absolutely not true, in fact, it's moronic.

Once again, without the experience of being a bogey golfer or worse, you are making assertions outside your area of expertise.

That statement and my familiarity with the game of a bogey golfer is clearly within my area of expertise


The high handicappers I play with make few GIR from 5750 yards. Sure, if you move us forward so we can reach the 4s with our drives, our GIR would improve. But if all we are doing is hitting tee shots and chips, why should we go out to the course. We could settle our bets at the range and short game practice area.

To better address your comment, I need to know your handicap, the handicaps of those you play with, the tees you play from and the name and slope of the golf course you play on.  Armed with that information I'll be more adequately prepared to address your statement.

The high handicapper has trouble hitting it straight enough to do GIR from any range.

We're not talking about 50 handicaps.
High handicap to me is 16-24, very high, 25+

There is no such thing as a 50 handicap.

Well, you're wrong on that count too.
You evidently don't understand the difference between an "handicap index" and an handicap based upon the slope of the course you're playing.


If you want the world to play golf, don't be suggesting to people that they can get GIR by playing it forward.

Not only GIR, but more pars and birdies.

If you want GIR for the high handicapper increase the par on every hole by one. He can then get close enough to the GIR in 1, 2, or 3 on previously par 3, 4, and 5 that he can get his GIR if par is 4, 5, and 6.

More moronic suggestions

Not moronic, just a recognition that people will have more fun competing match play than competing against the course by continually failing to get GIR, pars, and birdies.


What you fail to recognize, and it would be cruel of me to expect otherwise, since you've attained "Supreme" moron status, is that "match" play is a SECONDARY scoring method predicated upon trying to score as low as possible on any given hole (medal).  Ergo, even at match play, medal play is the PRIMARY scoring method.  And, that it's only AFTER  the hole has been completed, AFTER you've made that medal score that you switch to the SECONDARY, binary method utilized for match play.

ie, Player "A's" medal score for the hole is 3, Player "B's" medal score for the hole is 4.   Binary equivalent, Player "A" is Plus 1 for that hole.

Next hole, Player "A's" medal score is 5, Player "B's" is 6, Binary equivalent, Player "A" is Plus 1 for that hole, and Plus 2 for the holes played to date.


If you think more GIR will make them happy then make more GIR something they can accomplish.

They can accomplish more GIR by moving forward, it's a fact, try it.

I know, that even a "Supreme" moron would agree that golfers, irrespective of handicap, will hit more GIR on a 5,400 yard course than they will on a 7,400 yard course.

And, more GIR equals more birdies and pars.

Dostoyevsky wrote about the arrogance of the ignorant in "The Idiot" and boy did he get that right.

[Garland Bayley]

"I once was a bogey or worse golfer and my memory banks are still operational."

When was that Patrick? When were you an 18 handicap or worse? You intimate on this website that you were club champion perhaps in your 20s. You also intimate that you are perhaps around 70 now. So please give us detailed report on being a bogey or worse?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I once was a bogey or worse golfer and my memory banks are still operational."

When was that Patrick? When were you an 18 handicap or worse?

In 2004 when I lost 75 pounds due to radiation and chemotherapy and couldn't hit the ball 150 yards off the tee, let alone walk 50 yards without having to stop because I was fatiqued.

I couldn't get the ball airborne, with other than my driver, because my equilibrium was shot from the chemo and I had no strength and had to change my swing because I'd lose my balance and fall if I tried to swing like I had in the past.  So, I'm reasonably familiar with the games of 18 handicaps or worse, having been one for about a year or so just a short while ago.


You intimate on this website that you were club champion perhaps in your 20s.

I'd like to think I was a little better than a golfer who won a local club championship.
I did win a few, but, in addition to competing it State and MGA Tournaments, I did manage to play in USGA Championships, like the Amateur, Mid-Amateur and Senior Amateur.

You also intimate that you are perhaps around 70 now.

I passed 70 a while ago.

So please give us detailed report on being a bogey or worse?

2004 and 2005.

But, the funny thing was, even though I couldn't hit the ball with power and get it elevated, I enjoyed the game as much, if not more, because the features/hazards became more significant.  I found that the aerial game was beyond my ability and that I had to tack my way around the golf course.  

So, I have rather current experience with being a bogey golfer or worse.

Fortunately, through practice, perseverance and playing, I was able to regain some of my old form.
However, the balance issue remains a problem, but, I'm working on it.

The strange thing was that as I gained my weight and strength back, a terrible thing happened.
I tried to hit the ball harder, boy, was that a mistake.

Could you tell us your handicap and the handicaps of your mates, along with the course and tees you play, with it's slope.

Thanks

[Tim Bert]

... I lean well toward the Jaka view of this side discussion than the GJB view.
...

Jaka's view is that I am a handicap cheat. My view is that I am not. You think I'm a cheat too?

I have nothing to say about Jaka's views on handicap adjustment other than I trust Dr. Knuth to get it more right that Jaka.

I apologize for including your name in that comment. I don't know what it meant. I don't know if you are a cheat and I certainly didn't want to get in a discussion with you.

[Garland Bayley]

"Injecting a low handicap golfer's mind into the game of a high handicapper will produce better results.  "

Ok, let's see where that leads.
Me, driver 230, 5 wood 200, 7 wood 190, 9 wood 180, 5 iron 170, 6 iron, 160, etc.
Lefty, Handicap 22
Swinging up at the ball on a tee with long clubs tends to fade or worse.
Striking down on the ball with shorter clubs tends to draw or worse.

I'm on 1st tee Mountain Ridge, you pick the tees, where do I aim, what club do I choose?
I'll see how well I can follow along on http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46011.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Injecting a low handicap golfer's mind into the game of a high handicapper will produce better results.  "

Ok, let's see where that leads.

It leads to lower scores.


Me, driver 230, 5 wood 200, 7 wood 190, 9 wood 180, 5 iron 170, 6 iron, 160, etc.
Lefty, Handicap 22
Swinging up at the ball on a tee with long clubs tends to fade or worse.
Striking down on the ball with shorter clubs tends to draw or worse.

I'm on 1st tee Mountain Ridge, you pick the tees, where do I aim, what club do I choose?

White tees.

Blue and Black tees are too long for you.

As to your aim, there's where you're aiming and where you think you're aiming, so, until you get up on the tee and are ready to hit the ball, other than telling you to look where the pin is, and to favor the left side of the fairway, I'd have to reserve comment.
And, while I may provide you with excellent advice, you might reject it, thinking that you know how to get around the golf course better than I do.  I may tell you to hit a 6-iron, favoring long and right, and you might take your 8 iron and leave it short and left.  So, until you actually step up onto the tee, I can't help you.

Golf, isn't a virtual reality game, it's a game of reality.


I'll see how well I can follow along on http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46011.0.html

[John Kavanaugh]

Most clubs now limit handicap differential to 10 strokes. The combination of a scratch golfer and a high handicap that will listen is an unbeatable combination.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Most clubs now limit handicap differential to 10 strokes.
The combination of a scratch golfer and a high handicap that will listen is an unbeatable combination.

Jaka B,

I see more and more clubs doing this on member-member and member-guest events.

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

White tees, about 400 yards right? Seems to me that I pull driver and aim at the right fairway bunker. How high is the lip on the left bunker? Might want to consider that before actually going ahead with the shot.

[Garland Bayley]

...
As to your aim, there's where you're aiming and where you think you're aiming, so, until you get up on the tee and are ready to hit the ball, other than telling you to look where the pin is, and to favor the left side of the fairway...

I thought you were familiar with the bogey and worse player. The bogey or worse player could give a rats ass where the pin is. You think the bogey or worse golfer can "favor the left side of the fairway" on demand? It seems to me that the bogey or worse golfer needs to simply consider how he is going to get the ball in play. How do you think I beat Kalen? He had delusions of grandeur and finding the correct position and such nonsense. I kept the ball in play as well as I could and he ended up in places unmentionable.

[Jason Thurman]

Garland mentions beating Kalen more often that Johnny Miller mentions his 63 at Oakmont.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

If you can show where I said that about Chambers Bay, then I'll eat my hat. I hope the roads you build have more integrity than the stuff you manufacture for this website.

No worries though John, I forgive you for your slip ups.

Looks like my reading comprehension was off.  Sorry that you didn't play the first six holes at Chambers six under.  Please keep the hat, I've seen your doo.

"I was scheduled to play the Open Preview at Chambers Bay on Sunday. So I took time to practice Thursday and Friday. On Saturday I was schedule to play in a "6-6-6", 6 holes partner best ball, 6 holes scramble, 6 holes Chapman. I hate nonstandard formats, so seldom play them. Played with on of my regular partners, turned in our score having no idea how we did having next to no familiarity with typical scoring, mid week my partner calls to say we won the thing by a considerable amount. Since it was not flighted, it was the biggest prize I have ever won as we split $350 pro shot credit. I guess that was my personal best as my partner thanked me for carrying him to victory as I was 6 under net on my own ball the first six holes.

I guess I had another best as I birdied three in a row (gross) for the only time in my life in our club match play."

Here is a link to an article about a bagger from my home town.  He also claims it was just luck.


http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2013/08/30/3679224/leader-disqualified-another-named.html

The World Am is a joke. A friend of mine (one of the best Senior Ams in the country) went as a 0.9 one year when he wasn't playing well- and the furthest from a sandbagger I know- shot 69 in the 3rd round playing in the lowest index flight. He was disqualified because the official told him "I'm also a 1 and I can't shoot 69".

"For Brennan, a 66-year-old small publishing company owner who is a member of two courses, the victory was sweet redemption. The 18.3-handicap had won his flight one other time in his handful of World Ams and was in contention in the championship playoff before making what he remembers to be a 19 on his 13th hole.

“That was my worst day in golf and this is my best,” Brennan said. “I left in such a huff I never thought I’d come back, but I was right back the next year. … This is truly amazing. My heart is swelling. It’s like, ‘How did I get here?’ That’s what I keep asking myself.”

Brennan nearly played his way out of the title Friday as well, when he took a 7 on the par-4 18th hole for a net double bogey that dropped him from net 12 under to 10 under.

“I was trying to play a little conservatively because I’ve played this course three times in my lifetime and there are three of my golf balls in that lake out there [to the left side of the hole],” Brennan said. “It was almost like I was playing not to lose instead of to win, and that is not my forte. I want to win or nothing.”


Read more here: http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2013/08/30/3679224/leader-disqualified-another-named.html#storylink=cpy

They took the trophy away from the guy who used to have game and finally put a round together, and gave it to this guy? I thought handicaps were supposed to level things, but yet this guy won his flight twice out of five or less times? This is the guy I would be investigating.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

White tees, about 400 yards right? Seems to me that I pull driver and aim at the right fairway bunker.

Absolutely NOT.

The fairway and general terrain slope high left to low right.

You want to aim at the left side of the fairway, especially with your fade/slice.

You see, this is why you're a lousy golfer, you don't see the tactical values and you don't integrate them with your game  

How high is the lip on the left bunker?

HIGH

Might want to consider that before actually going ahead with the shot.

You have so much to learn and I can only devote so much time to your case.

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