[Michael Whitaker]

Pat, you said:  "...I felt that golfers who were reluctant to move up, had lost sight of an object of the game, namely, making more birdies and pars."

You covered yourself here by saying "AN" object of the game instead of "THE" object, so my comment may not fit...

That wasn't by accident.

but, too many people are totally fixed on score to the detriment of their (and others) enjoyment of the game. Just like a lot of the guys on this site who think riding in a cart is not really golf, but "cart golf," I don't think "tournament golf" is really golf. Golf for the masses is supposed to be a GAME with the object being the defeat of your opponent, regardless of how many strokes it takes to do so.

The only way to beat your opponent is to score LOWER than him.

SCORE, or rather attempting to achieve the LOWEST score is an object of the game.

All of you morons who play these phantom opponents where score isn't relevant are kidding yourselves.
And, if you play the opponent, and not the hole, you must be a lousy match play golfer.

Ask yourself, how many times have you made a par or birdie from out of nowhere.
You can't depend upon your opponent to screw up, so you have to try to make the lowest score possible.
As Hale Irwin told me, always expect your opponent to make the shot you don't want him to make.
If your play is focused on your opponent and not the hole, then you must stink.
Play the hole, but, be cognizant of the opponent.

I have the most fun playing golf when I am embroiled in a competition and the only focus for the players is winning the match.

You can ONLY win the match by scoring LOWER than your opponent on the majority of holes played

My worst days on the course are when I am playing with someone who is a "swing nut" and totally focused on their score. It is not much fun when the guy who is obviously mostly concerned with his individual score makes a couple of bogies (or, God forbid, double bogies) and declares that his round is totally ruined.

So you don't think that your opponent in match play is "totally focused on his score" ?

The guys I most enjoy on the course are the ones who have no idea what they shot after the round is over.

They're called hackers or tennis players or surfers, but, they sure as hell ain't golfer.

Sometimes those guys shoot 69, sometimes 109... doesn't matter to them or me.

NOBODY, who shoots 69 is oblivious to their round to date.
They know exactly where they stand.
They just aren't apt to admit it.

What matters is that we spent the day together trying to have a fun competition... not measuring our dicks.

Once you enter a "competition" you're "measuring your dicks" whether you want to admit it or not.

In my opinion, playing non-tournament golf for a score instead of trying to win a match is masterbation.

What's wrong with masterbation ?

So, when you play golf, and the first hole is a par 5, you don't care what you make.
You don't try to play your best and achieve the lowest possible score, given your abilities.

Please, spare us the B.S.

Some of my most competitive, non-tournament, non-financial rounds, have been against Ran, and both of us tried to play each hole in the lowest possible score.  Anyone who claims otherwise is full of crap.

Sorry. I'm right and you're wrong. Have a nice day!  

[Sean_A]

Thirty years ago I used to argue with Pete Dye about forward tees ... he was trying to move them all up to where the average player hit 8-iron second shots like the pros do, and I said I'd rather have a variety of approach lengths [which we couldn't do for the pros, because 470 yards was driver, 8-iron for them in 1984].

I still feel the same way.  You shouldn't play ALL the tees forward, you should mix them up and play some forward and some WAY forward -- and a couple from the back tee, as long as there isn't a 230-yard carry.

Giving this average player 8 iron approach some thought...  Lets assume the average male player on average hits it 175 and an 8 iron 125. Thats 300 yards x 12 = 3600 yards.  4 par 3s at 125 = 500 yards.  4 par 5s at 455 yards = 1820 yards.  Thats a total of 5920 yards.  If an archie can't design a course of this length which provides plenty of challenge and interest for guys who hit it well beyond average length then they should get out of the business.  

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Since when did 175+125=330?  I think the average male golfer drives a bit further than 175.

[Sean_A]

Since when did 175+125=330?  I think the average male golfer drives a bit further than 175.

Mark - since I started to use bistro math - its great stuff.  The overall numbers don't change for the mistake.  

I picked 175 as a conservative estimate, but I was also trying to take into account the odd foozle etc.  Most of the time peope talk of averages they will chuck out their bad hits, but definitely include ther best hits - funny that eh?  Still, its a wild guess I plucked from nowhere just to see what the final yardages were.  I was surprised it added up to just shy of 6000 yards - as you know, not an unheard of length for courses in the UK.

Ciao  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, you said:  "...I felt that golfers who were reluctant to move up, had lost sight of an object of the game, namely, making more birdies and pars."

You covered yourself here by saying "AN" object of the game instead of "THE" object, so my comment may not fit...

That wasn't by accident.

but, too many people are totally fixed on score to the detriment of their (and others) enjoyment of the game. Just like a lot of the guys on this site who think riding in a cart is not really golf, but "cart golf," I don't think "tournament golf" is really golf. Golf for the masses is supposed to be a GAME with the object being the defeat of your opponent, regardless of how many strokes it takes to do so.

The only way to beat your opponent is to score LOWER than him.

SCORE, or rather attempting to achieve the LOWEST score is an object of the game.

All of you morons who play these phantom opponents where score isn't relevant are kidding yourselves.
And, if you play the opponent, and not the hole, you must be a lousy match play golfer.

Ask yourself, how many times have you made a par or birdie from out of nowhere.
You can't depend upon your opponent to screw up, so you have to try to make the lowest score possible.
As Hale Irwin told me, always expect your opponent to make the shot you don't want him to make.
If your play is focused on your opponent and not the hole, then you must stink.
Play the hole, but, be cognizant of the opponent.

I have the most fun playing golf when I am embroiled in a competition and the only focus for the players is winning the match.

You can ONLY win the match by scoring LOWER than your opponent on the majority of holes played

My worst days on the course are when I am playing with someone who is a "swing nut" and totally focused on their score. It is not much fun when the guy who is obviously mostly concerned with his individual score makes a couple of bogies (or, God forbid, double bogies) and declares that his round is totally ruined.

So you don't think that your opponent in match play is "totally focused on his score" ?

The guys I most enjoy on the course are the ones who have no idea what they shot after the round is over.

They're called hackers or tennis players or surfers, but, they sure as hell ain't golfer.

Sometimes those guys shoot 69, sometimes 109... doesn't matter to them or me.

NOBODY, who shoots 69 is oblivious to their round to date.
They know exactly where they stand.
They just aren't apt to admit it.

What matters is that we spent the day together trying to have a fun competition... not measuring our dicks.

Once you enter a "competition" you're "measuring your dicks" whether you want to admit it or not.

In my opinion, playing non-tournament golf for a score instead of trying to win a match is masterbation.

What's wrong with masterbation ?

So, when you play golf, and the first hole is a par 5, you don't care what you make.
You don't try to play your best and achieve the lowest possible score, given your abilities.

Please, spare us the B.S.

Some of my most competitive, non-tournament, non-financial rounds, have been against Ran, and both of us tried to play each hole in the lowest possible score.  Anyone who claims otherwise is full of crap.

Sorry. I'm right and you're wrong. Have a nice day!  

The USGA handicap system and the posting of scores with stroke control says I'm right and you're wrong

[Tom_Doak]

Thirty years ago I used to argue with Pete Dye about forward tees ... he was trying to move them all up to where the average player hit 8-iron second shots like the pros do, and I said I'd rather have a variety of approach lengths [which we couldn't do for the pros, because 470 yards was driver, 8-iron for them in 1984].

I still feel the same way.  You shouldn't play ALL the tees forward, you should mix them up and play some forward and some WAY forward -- and a couple from the back tee, as long as there isn't a 230-yard carry.

Giving this average player 8 iron approach some thought...  Lets assume the average male player on average hits it 175 and an 8 iron 125. Thats 300 yards x 12 = 3600 yards.  4 par 3s at 125 = 500 yards.  4 par 5s at 455 yards = 1820 yards.  Thats a total of 5920 yards.  If an archie can't design a course of this length which provides plenty of challenge and interest for guys who hit it well beyond average length then they should get out of the business.  

Ciao

Sean:

Perhaps that explains why Mr. Dye also said the only way to get his idea to work was to build the men's tees at 5800 yards, and then lie on the scorecard and say it was 6200 yards, so they wouldn't play from a different set of tees.

Funny, too, that's pretty much what they do in Britain -- you talk about the yardage from the white tees, but then make everyone play off the yellows, which are generally around 6000 yards or even less.

[Sean_A]

Funny, too, that's pretty much what they do in Britain -- you talk about the yardage from the white tees, but then make everyone play off the yellows, which are generally around 6000 yards or even less.

Good, isn't it?  .

BTW - I am not adverse to being lied to as to the yardage of a course.  

BTW II - I do notice that more and more clusb are allowing visitor play from medals tees.  Its not really advertised, but if you ask...I have been learning this because I have gotten heavily into playing different colours during the round and of course, sometimes the white tees look more interesting...

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Pete Dye's pronouncements were made before the quantum leap in distance.

I'd be interested in his views today

[Keith Grande]

Pat,

How dare you offer suggestions to make the game more enjoyable?  People don't want to be spoon fed more pars and birdies...after all this is a self-masochistic group.  We prefer the "challenge" of playing tees well beyond our abilities.  Why not move back 1,000 yards and hit 4 irons, hybrids and woods into greens all day?  

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,

As much as I like watching great players play golf, and I appreciate that those guys are really, really good.

I think the televising of PGA Tour events has also hurt golf in terms of conditioning and play.

Golf is the one of the only games in the world where the worst players want to play the same field of play as the best players in the world.

True. I mean, we'd all love to play basketball at Madison Square Garden or football at Lambeau Field, but I don't want to see Tyson Chandler, Lebron, JJ Watt, or Navarro Bowman on the other team in either of those places. In golf, the course plays the "defense." Just like it's not much fun having shots blocked repeatedly by Chandler or getting hit by Bowman, it's also not much fun to hack it around from the back tees on Tour-caliber courses for most players. And yet they do it, for reasons that are numerous and hard to pin down.

Not too far from me is a course outside of Indianapolis called Purgatory. Much of their advertising focuses on the course's difficulty (it was once the longest non-mountain course in the US, and it has approximately 3 million bunkers). Indianapolis is a great city for public golf, and I've encouraged many friends of mine to make the 90 minute drive to play places like The Trophy Club and The Fort, which both stand among the finest public courses I've played and are among the best values in the country. Once someone has found Purgatory though, it's almost impossible to talk them into playing one of those other courses at its expense. They want to "experience a test like that" and seem to find some higher purpose in getting the crap kicked out of them for five hours.

That's not to say Purgatory isn't a fine course on its own. By all accounts, it's a really fun place to play with sound strategic principles from a tee that fits your game. But most of the guys I know who have visited are >12 handicaps who played from the tips around 8000 yards. And while a round like that may be fun once in a while, it's not an approach to the game that creates sustainable enjoyment. It's like doing the "Inferno Chicken Wings Challenge" at some dive restaurant - it's fun to be able to say you did it once, but anyone who thinks that the higher purpose of eating lies in a bucket of obscenely overspiced fried chicken has missed out on a lot of the real joys in life.

[Jason Thurman]

Jason

  I knew you would go there.  Yes combo tees may limit tee boxes, but would require additional score cards to be printed (some courses printed two score cards for these and is annoying to staff).  If that isn't the case the original scorecard would look like a little too busy.  Sean and some others made it very clear that certain people should not be playing the back tees.  Coercion as in limiting longer tees as a way to limiting choice is what i would feel his next step would be if in charge.  Please reread earlier posts!

Oh I read the earlier posts. I don't disagree with you that there are those on this site who would like to coerce others into playing the tees they deem "appropriate." As I said, The Hunger Games made me think a lot about the future of golf.

One thing I think we all learned from the saga with the berries is that it's often the most benign-looking things that are most dangerous. Those who make clear their distaste for certain people playing the back tees are far less dangerous than those who appear as allies but then reveal their true Capitol Colors (I'm only a few chapters into The Mockingjay, but I suspect Coin will eventually reveal herself to be one of the latter). Sean may be a Peacekeeper in training, but it still takes a President Snow to command the troops.

What forms of coercion do you think will eventually be used to force crappy golfers to move up a tee? Or, if you'd like, what forms of coercion do you think the guys who have posted on this thread would favor?

I must admit that I've never seen a course that prints extra scorecards for its combo tees, nor have I ever heard a pro shop staff member complain about keeping up with all the different scorecards they stock and how annoying they are. Of course, it's not like you have a history of making irrational and unfounded claims, so I trust that those courses exist. Interestingly, I HAVE seen courses that print extra scorecards for their recently installed back "tournament" tees, and one could argue that those scorecards would be obsolete and could be eliminated if everyone just played from the appropriate yardage. I've also never felt like my golf experience was diminished by the aesthetics of a scorecard with too complex a grid, though with the participation rates of golf continuing to fall I have no doubt that ugly scorecards may be a contributing factor.

[BCowan]

Jason

   I don't know why i even engage with you.  '' Of course, it's not like you have a history of making irrational and unfounded claims, so I trust that those courses exist.''   Wow some comment there that you do not back up with examples! I didn't know that i had to test my opinions before i post?  

    I do think there are certain people that would try and get on golf committees at their club and tell the keeper of a club not to put tees back or eliminate them all together.  I just know how certain people think.  I worked at a course with combo tee scorecard, it was the trendy thing to.  I think combo tee's are a trend.  Island greens became a trend, but never intended to IMO.  I think it is a quasi intellectual ''pencil neck geek'' idea to not address the real problems with slow play!  I don't see how 4 tee boxes could not be printed on a scorecard and why a course made a special scorecard for their tips, but nothing surprises me!  People thinking they know what is best or more fun for other people, it is humorous when you think about it from this angle.  

   It is funny you mention Purgatory, for it is a course that I wanted to play for a number of reasons.  You can't figure out why someone would want to challenge themselves day in a day out.  Don't try, you won't figure it out.  Is it okay the Pine Valley was built for the better golfer and Purgatory can't use that same motto for the poor man?  Is it Sawgrass difficult for the average player, and would the average player lose less balls at Purgatory than Sawgrass?  It is funny for my friends father made a visit with his golf group to indy to play all upscale public and 5 or 6 courses and Purgatory was his favorite and he is a 14 handicap.   I am sorry that i mentioned friend's father and not some ''person who studies golf physiology''!  So you friends want to keep going back to Purgatory, but it doesn't create sustainable enjoyment in your eyes....  Participation rate has been down due to the economy!  People now have to work more and there is less time to take off work for golf!  I think trends of the modern built courses where you can lose 6 golf balls a round have discouraged play.  Lack of thinning out, lack of giving a player one side to miss his tee shot, too many water hazards, and so on are trends that hopefully will die just as this modern trend of combo tees.  

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, you don't need to test your opinions before you post. But when you say in regards to combo tees that "some courses printed two score cards for these and is annoying to staff," you're not stating an opinion. You're either stating a fact, or stating a lie. That's not a personal attack on you, it's just a real dichotomy. A relaying of historical events is either factual or it isn't. It's not unfair for someone to ask you to name an example or two when you make such a claim. As I said, I implicitly trust you since you rarely say ridiculous and unfounded things, but you'll violate that trust if you can't give an example of a course where the installment of combo tees led to the printing of multiple scorecards that annoyed staff. I've been hurt before, Ben. My trust isn't a cactus that can be ignored, it's a fern that needs to be watered and kept in the sun.

As I mentioned about Purgatory, many people whose opinions I trust consider it a good course from the proper tees. I'd like to play it sometime myself. But you're wrong about one thing. My friends who travel there to play the tips don't "keep going back." They go once, and they don't return. They're glad they did it, but they don't come back. To be fair, it's a 90+ minute drive for most of the guys I know who traveled to play the course, so it's not the easiest return trip. But I don't know anyone who has played The Fort or The Trophy Club who hasn't returned within a few years. Both of those courses are very challenging, by the way. You shouldn't skip them if you get to Indianapolis.

It's interesting that you suggest a course like Purgatory can create sustainable enjoyment, and then immediately say that losing balls discourages play. Purgatory has a reputation as a ball-eater among the guys I know who have played it. I don't deal in hypotheticals, but I'd be interested to see real data on correlation between number of lost balls in a round and average time to return to a course stratified by distance traveled. I'd also love to see which courses extract the most lost balls from players of different handicaps. I don't think such data would show Purgatory to be an easy course to play with a single ball, but in the absence of it I can't say for sure.

Just to clear things up, I'll repeat that Purgatory is a very good course from the proper tees by most accounts. I do know many people who enjoy playing from around 6500 or 6800 yards there, and a few of them have made the return trip. I suspect it stacks up quite well with the overall excellent public golf options in Indy. I just don't know many people who return to play the tips over and over again. Based on that observation, it does not appear to me that 7800 yards of golf on extremely difficult courses creates sustainable enjoyment. Did your 14 handicapper play from the tips? It sucks that he isn't a golf physiologist, but I guess his experience is still worth something.

[Brent Hutto]

My club created one combination set of tees a year ago. We have for normal daily play a set we think of as "ladies" tees, a set we think of as "senior" and the two other sets are sort of "front" and "back" men's tees. There are some rarely-used tee boxes on most holes way, way back that are reserved for major outside tournament play.

Anyway, the combo set uses 10 tees from the "front" and 8 tees from the "senior" tees. It was created, in all honesty, to cater to quite a few guys who have been playing this same course several times a week for decades. Those guys tend to play the "front" tees until they are in their 60's then play the "senior" tees. The combo set lets players in either age bracket have an alternative set just for the variety of it.

The combo set is USGA rated and appears on the scorecard just like the other four sets. They simply do not have a fifth set of marker stones and teeing areas. I am not aware of anyone on the club's staff feeling inconvenienced. Honestly our membership numbers are depleted enough in recent years that the staff are not inclined to complain about doing simple, no-cost things that are perceived as a benefit to the members...

P.S. As a correction, I just went and looked at a scorecard and noted that the way, way back tournament tees also appear on our printed scorecards. Although I'm pretty sure those markers are not often placed on those tee boxes as nobody much wants to play back there.

[BCowan]

Once someone has found Purgatory though, it's almost impossible to talk them into playing one of those other courses at its expense

    I didn't say Purgatory would offer sustained enjoyment for ''everyone''.  The course serves a certain ''niche'' market!  Who are you to say what tees someone would enjoy Golf from?  Maybe there are people that like to hit a 3 wood into and make a par, and that would make their day verses hitting an 8 iron in and making birdie.  You don't know what an opinion is.  You look at every comment as though it were a science data collection project.  I have caddied at 5 clubs in my younger days, and through observations of caddying for every possible golfer imaginable, I can say I have a pretty good grasp on things.  There are things like ''course management'' that you can't do data for, its all observation IMO.  7800 yards is not for everyone and like other architects they made it longer to prevent having to do tees again if the ball goes farther.  I doubt the 14 handicap player played from the tips, but you want to tell people that they don't have enough common sense to play the right tee, and that annoys the heck out of me!  Obviously he was able to pick the right tee box, for he enjoyed it and was his favorite.  All this without being micromanaged by ''the smart people''!  I am not going to get into a lost ball data collection analysis with you, I make my opinions and give them based off of experience and countless observations!  Purgatory is still in business, so i guess they are serving their Niche market well enough without dictating what tees someone should play to have more fun...

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

Garland's second goal right behind winning is maintaining his 22 handicap. Remember, he is the guy who adjusts the course rating, as allowed by the USGA, based on his estimation of tee placement. I can't believe you are wasting your time and ours by arguing with a sandbagger. Btw.  A bagger never tees it forward until tournament time.

Wherever do you come up with this nonsense? I tee it forward almost every time I play as my home course is 5752 yards. I suggest you need to visit the pope more often, as you claim it absolved your hate last time.

Are you the guy in Oregon that posts every score as a combo?  I would love to see a link to your ghin account.  I have no problem stating that you scam the system. That is cheating in an honorable game.

I can avoid slow players. I can't stop cheaters.

Well since I'm not from Oregon, I can't be that guy. Perhaps that's why you can't find my ghin account.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ok, Garland.  Are you the guy from Washington that has only posted one score since 2010?  If you truly post your scores on ghin as you say just give us a link.  I can not find a G. Bailey in any western state that is not obviously a sandbagger.

[Rob Curtiss]

I am not going to begin to tell anyone which tee box they should play from .

I like to challenge myself by playing the tee box that is closest to a 72.00 par rating.

The only exception for me is when I play a US OPEN course , so I can see how really good the tour players are.

Although, I think playing from the backs sometimes to see the full course as the designer intended us to see it. ( sometimes when you move up in the tee box they put the next box up in front of a hazzard )

[Garland Bayley]

John,

Why should anyone do anything for you when you are the type of guy that calls people cheaters for no other reason than they play all their rounds on their nine hole home course?

[Jason Topp]

Thirty years ago I used to argue with Pete Dye about forward tees ... he was trying to move them all up to where the average player hit 8-iron second shots like the pros do, and I said I'd rather have a variety of approach lengths [which we couldn't do for the pros, because 470 yards was driver, 8-iron for them in 1984].

I still feel the same way.  You shouldn't play ALL the tees forward, you should mix them up and play some forward and some WAY forward -- and a couple from the back tee, as long as there isn't a 230-yard carry.

Giving this average player 8 iron approach some thought...  Lets assume the average male player on average hits it 175 and an 8 iron 125. Thats 300 yards x 12 = 3600 yards.  4 par 3s at 125 = 500 yards.  4 par 5s at 455 yards = 1820 yards.  Thats a total of 5920 yards.  If an archie can't design a course of this length which provides plenty of challenge and interest for guys who hit it well beyond average length then they should get out of the business.  

Ciao

This is a 20 hole course.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Why should anyone do anything for you when you are the type of guy that calls people cheaters for no other reason than they play all their rounds on their nine hole home course?

Come on Garland.  You posted that the best thing you did in 2013 was play Chambers Bay 6 under net for the first six holes and then somewhere else made three birdies gross in a row.  You have a history of managing your handicap.

The icing on the cake was when you pulled out the rule book to teach us how we could all cheat like you and not break the rules.

You claim to be some sort of celebrity endorser for the clubs you play while sporting a 22.  Nobody in the history of the game has seen a 22 hit the ball and say they have to get some of that.  I'm doing you a favor saying that you sandbag because there is no way someone who is your age, your health and with your intelligence that plays and thinks about golf as much as you is a legit 22.  Hell, you even recently claimed to consistently play from the up tees.

Other people from this site that have played with you say that you are better than that.  I'm just trying to help your self esteem.

[John Kavanaugh]

I apologize to everyone for my discussion with Garland but the simple fact is that most golfers do not want their handicaps to go down because of recreational play.  The USGA needs to allow higher handicaps for those people who move up and play faster.  Currently moving up and taking putts does exactly the opposite.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

If you can show where I said that about Chambers Bay, then I'll eat my hat. I hope the roads you build have more integrity than the stuff you manufacture for this website.

No worries though John, I forgive you for your slip ups.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

If you can show where I said that about Chambers Bay, then I'll eat my hat. I hope the roads you build have more integrity than the stuff you manufacture for this website.

No worries though John, I forgive you for your slip ups.

Looks like my reading comprehension was off.  Sorry that you didn't play the first six holes at Chambers six under.  Please keep the hat, I've seen your doo.

"I was scheduled to play the Open Preview at Chambers Bay on Sunday. So I took time to practice Thursday and Friday. On Saturday I was schedule to play in a "6-6-6", 6 holes partner best ball, 6 holes scramble, 6 holes Chapman. I hate nonstandard formats, so seldom play them. Played with on of my regular partners, turned in our score having no idea how we did having next to no familiarity with typical scoring, mid week my partner calls to say we won the thing by a considerable amount. Since it was not flighted, it was the biggest prize I have ever won as we split $350 pro shot credit. I guess that was my personal best as my partner thanked me for carrying him to victory as I was 6 under net on my own ball the first six holes.

I guess I had another best as I birdied three in a row (gross) for the only time in my life in our club match play."

Here is a link to an article about a bagger from my home town.  He also claims it was just luck.


http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2013/08/30/3679224/leader-disqualified-another-named.html

[Garland Bayley]

Yes John,

I also had a hole-in-one a few years back, which also proves I'm a handicap cheat. 

See the pope about your bitterness.

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