[Patrick_Mucci]

label or motto.

Instead of having "play it forward" as the catch phrase, it should be, "make more birdies and pars"

I recently played a course that I hadn't played in a decade, one that I had probably played over 100 times previously.

On the first hole, I played all the way back, just for the fun of it (par 5), then moved up to the next set of tees, which plays at about 6,700 in terms of pure yardage.

The course played long for me due to wind, overseeding, wet fairways, high cut fairways and my deteriorating game, and as the round progressed it dawned on my that I didn't have many "birdie" putts.  I consider "birdie" putts to be putts of 20 feet and less.

The more I thought about it, the more I felt that golfers who were reluctant to move up, had lost sight of an object of the game, namely, making more birdies and pars.

Ego and denial keep many from moving forward on courses that, objectively, are too long for them, because they're looking at the process in terms of their tee shots and not from the perspective of birdies and pars.

One is perceived as a negative, the other as a positive.

I love a challenge, but in order to enjoy that challenge, it has to be reasonable and commensurate with my abilities.

I prefer hitting 7 irons into greens versus 3-irons or fairway woods.

The problem I see is as follows.
On a firm and fast course, I can play it back, on courses that are soft, I can't play from the equivalent distance, so the key in determining tee selection isn't on the scorecard, it's in the ground.

And, the emphasis on getting golfers to play courses commensurate with their ability should be geared toward the positive, having "birdies" and "pars", and not geared toward moving up because you can't hit it as far.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[BCowan]

I don't like motto's but i am going to go with one they have over across the pond.  A sign ''No Practice Swings'' or mine ''No Rain Delays'', depending on how you look at it, it can be positive! 

I think people are capable of determining what tee they should play.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

I think people are capable of determining what tee they should play.  

That'll be the day.

Pat,
That's all true about conditions, etc., and following that advice will lead to more birdies and pars but play it forward encompasses the broader ideal of shorter time spent on the course.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I'm a 7 who hits it pretty far for a guy on Medicare.  I must say, I get much more satisfaction shooting 81 on a 6700 yard course than a 78 on a 6300 yard course.  Most of my friends disagree.

[BCowan]

Mr Kennedy

    When it is 45 degs or wet most people play up if they are struggling with getting on in regulation.  I agree with Jim.  I am sorry that you think so little of your common man that you have to have organizations tell us what to do.  Let me ask you, when Jack Nicklaus was told by someone he was playing slow, he later went on to say that incident got him speed up his play.  Do you think Motto's would of worked for Jack?  Also duel sprinkler systems have slowed northern courses up since early 90's.  Courses of the last 40 years for the most part have been designed for the non serious golfer, and they are closing.  Long distances to tees, forced carries off tees, not enough thinning, and holes cut out of forests.   I don't see slow play an issue at most private clubs.  I see it more of an issue at most upscale public ''Cart designed tracks''!  People looking for their ball every other hole, people who don't know how to play cart golf, and ready golf.  Muni's tend to be slow for not enough par 3 or executive courses where beginners can learn the game, but i think that will change.  So i think it is the golf owners to blame for trying to be trendy and make a quick buck in the short term.

   If courses come up with motto's i feel it is much better.  A Florida course could go against the norm and have a sign ''Brown grass is more fun''.  People spend time on the greens like they see pro's on TV playing 5.5 hr rounds, but the difference is they are hitting 10-12 greens a round.  Around the greens and modern forced carries is where courses slow up the most IMO.  

[Brian Finn]

I think people are capable of determining what tee they should play.  

I very strongly disagree with you.  I would say a majority of avid golfers play from the wrong tees. The most common instance is 15+ handicaps playing from the tips.

When it is 45 degs or wet most people play up if they are struggling with getting on in regulation.

Most people move up when it is wet or cool?  Again, I disagree.

I base my disagreement with your stances here on playing a pretty wide cross section of municipal, CCFaD, resort, and private courses over the last 20+ years while living in NY, CA, and OH, and traveling and playing golf throughout the rest of the country.  I take no joy in saying so, but I think you are giving US golfers far too much credit.  

Courses of the last 40 years for the most part have been designed for the non serious golfer, and they are closing.  

Can you expound on this point regarding courses of the last 40 years being designed for non-serious golfers?  Do you mean because they are largely cart-ball courses?  

Also, do you have stats on closures over the last 5-10 years, including year of opening?  I am not challenging you on this, I am really just interested in seeing the stats. I have seen many of the 'wrong' courses (e.g. Classic courses in run down neighborhoods) closing in areas with which I am more familiar.  I would take some solace if I learned that many of the course closures in recent years were the 'right' courses to close. I realize this is all highly subjective, but the stats would tell some of the story.  Thanks.

[Joe Bausch]

  I'm a 7 who hits it pretty far for a guy on Medicare.  I must say, I get much more satisfaction shooting 81 on a 6700 yard course than a 78 on a 6300 yard course.  Most of my friends disagree.

There's an upset!

[noonan]

Brilliant slogan Mucci

[Tom Bacsanyi]

This past season I was playing with a friend who wanted to play one up from the tips (I usually play the tips).  For convenience I played from these too.  The result was a three-under 69 (I had never even shot even before).  So I definitely made "more birdies and pars" than usual and was ecstatic.  So there is merit to this even for low handicappers.

[BCowan]

I very strongly disagree with you.  I would say a majority of avid golfers play from the wrong tees. The most common instance is 15+ handicaps playing from the tips.

   How far are the tips?  What if there are 4, 10, 12, and a 17 playing from the tips and they play in 4 hours or less.  Are they 15 handicaps for their short game is horrible and they have 35 putts a round?

Most people move up when it is wet or cool?  Again, I disagree.

I base my disagreement with your stances here on playing a pretty wide cross section of municipal, CCFaD, resort, and private courses over the last 20+ years while living in NY, CA, and OH, and traveling and playing golf throughout the rest of the country.  I take no joy in saying so, but I think you are giving US golfers far too much credit.

   I base mine on playing mostly in OH MI NC and FL.  I don't see many 15+ handicaps playing the tips.  How far are the tips?  I have seen 6300 tips.  Lack of ready golf, cart golf, short hitter looking for balls when he should be hitting, holes cut through forest instead of on 150 acres or less like GA designs.  I focus on those factors as slowing up golf.  

Can you expound on this point regarding courses of the last 40 years being designed for non-serious golfers?  Do you mean because they are largely cart-ball courses?  

Also, do you have stats on closures over the last 5-10 years, including year of opening?  I am not challenging you on this, I am really just interested in seeing the stats. I have seen many of the 'wrong' courses (e.g. Classic courses in run down neighborhoods) closing in areas with which I am more familiar.  I would take some solace if I learned that many of the course closures in recent years were the 'right' courses to close. I realize this is all highly subjective, but the stats would tell some of the story.  Thanks.

Nope i can not.  It is unfortunate classics have been closing prob due to lack of conditioning and run by local gov'ts.  The muni's in Toledo,OH are managed privately for the city, don't know about the rest of the country.  There are many reasons for closing.  I hope many of the wrong courses close and the market will bear that.  I hope many muni's can be purchased or managed by private people that have a passion for golf and are good stewards of the game.  

Mr Finn i just think you are focusing on a lesser important issue as it pertains to ''Pace of Play''

''In your heart you know that Mucci is right''

[BHoover]

I think that it's too simplistic to suggest that most golfers should move up a tee. Too often it's an all or nothing wherein the back tees are way too much and the next up tees are too short. I like the idea of a "hybrid" set of tees where you get a mix of tees. The only course I've played with hybrid tees was Firestone South. Without the hybrid tees, you either play blue (way, way too long for me) or white (too short). The hybrid tees call for a mix of both blue and white tees that makes for a decent mix of long and short(er) holes.

[Brian Finn]

 
Mr Finn i just think you are focusing on a lesser important issue as it pertains to ''Pace of Play''

''In your heart you know that Mucci is right''

I completely agree with Mr. Mucci on this one. What led you to assume otherwise?  Concerning golf architecture, competitive golf, and other critical topics often discussed on this board, he is among the most experienced and knowledgeable people here (or elsewhere).  Just don't tell him I said so.

I don't have the patience to debate you on your other comments. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you seem to be rather myopic in your views, and repeatedly shout 'groupthink' any time someone disagrees with you (as opposed to providing more evidence or supporting context).  So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Bob_Garvelink]

I like to have fun on the golf course and typically the better I play the more fun I have so I tend to play the middle tees on most courses.  Playing a shorter yardage makes the game more enjoyable for me and it also helps me play at a faster pace.  With that being said I had a chance to play Oakland Hills this summer and we played from the white tees which are around 6550 and I shot a 99 but had a blast and it was probably the most enjoyable round of my summer even though it was a bit long for me.  The difference for me is hitting a 7/8 iron on an approach shot vs. hitting an hybrid and ill pick the 7/8 iron every time if its my choice.

Cheers!

Bob

[BCowan]

I don't have the patience to debate you on your other comments. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you seem to be rather myopic in your views, and repeatedly shout 'groupthink' any time someone disagrees with you (as opposed to providing more evidence or supporting context).  So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

  I love Mr Mucci's post as well, he is one of my favorite.  

     No debate here, just difference of opinion.  I think that you referring to my reasons for slow play as ''myopic'' without providing any reasons is weak and condescending!  I gave you my opinions which are based on observations.  No, there are people that attack people or look for things to zero in on without providing opinions or rebuttals.  I always provide opinions and observations.  I only use the term group think with a few ''group thinkers'' on here.  You want people to offer studies, when common sense is the only thing needed.

Mr Mucci-  what do you think of a sign by the driving range that says ''the short game area is open today''?  

[Brian Finn]

Deleted

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCowan,

I think it's a good idea.
A reminder to work on your short game.
When you realize that the best golfers in the world only hit 78 % of GIR or less, working on your recovery game is important.

There's an inate resistance to "moving it forward", and I think one of the reasons behind that resistance is that the golfer doesn't want to acknowledge or surrender to the reality that the course from the tees he's chosen, is beyond his ability.

In other words, "moving it forward" is a bitter concession, whereas, "making more pars and birdies" is an incentive.

[V. Kmetz]

Don't know if its the kind of solution that works everywhere, for everybody but back in the day Brae Burn (NY) had three permanent set of Mens tees:

Blue
White
Yellow

On six holes, each color took a turn as the back tee, on six holes each took a turn as the middle, on six, each took a turn as the forward tee.  Each morning, a small pennant was flown over the putting green and Mens play was to be at that color. For tournaments, B,C and D played from the middle tee (denoted by an official MGA marker) and A was contested from the rear-most tee on any hole.

1. Because of the nature of the teeing grounds and individual hole design there was about a 200 yard variance between the longest color course -(Blue 6550 appx, White - 6475 appx, Yellow 6375 appx) and though the Yellow was indeed the "easiest tee" on individual holes it was a monster on some key holes...what I'm saying is that each color course had its virtues, despite the yardage variance.

2. This ended in the mid/late 90s for political reasons centering on Course Rating/HCP issues.

3. Today, it would be easy to return to this system, plopping a further BLACK tee where there isn't one already.

4. Individual games could (and did) have a lot of fun with this - obeying the color (2/3rd of the time), playing the MGA plates (1/6 of the time) and playing their own weird color game (hole winner chooses next tee color/stays the same if halved).

5. The variety of BB's teeing grounds (on several holes, at least) lent itself well to this system, especially its par 3s (which still retain great variance in yardage and shot demands from front to back). Not every place would.

6.  Brae Burn adopted this in its 8th season of play (1973) and I'm told that the idea was first imported from Fresh Meadow (NY)

cheers

vk

[John Kavanaugh]

We have been told for years that bad golfers enjoy the game more than low handicappers. I tend to agree in that I prefer setting a goal of playing well and breaking 80 over the pressure of playing well to break 70. It is two completely different games. Birdie putts are harder to make than par putts. Par putta are more difficult than bogey putts and putts for double rarely miss.

[Patrick_Mucci]

We have been told for years that bad golfers enjoy the game more than low handicappers.

I totally disagree.

Who spends more time laboring at the game, on the course, practice tee, short game area and practice putting green ?
The lower handicap or the high handicap ?

The other day I took my young son to play golf in the late afternoon.
On the practice tee was an exceptional golfer, Chris Lange.
I told my son to watch his routine and that if he wanted to improve his game, that he needed to work at improving it and that the only way to work at improving it, was to practice, on and off the course.

Chris was there the entire time we were there.
Now, he's an exceptionally accomplished golfer, and he had hit balls prior to playing earlier in the day, but, here he was working on his game.
You won't see 14, 18 and 22 handicaps putting in that time.
Only those who love/enjoy the game and want to improve put in the time to practice.

Lower handicap golfers and golfers who aspire to improve are the ones willing to work hard at a game they love.

I tend to agree in that I prefer setting a goal of playing well and breaking 80 over the pressure of playing well to break 70.


I think it depends upon how realistic those goals are.
Going from the back tees to the next set won't produce a 10 shot swing in your game.

I know what you mean about the level of satisfaction from the "big course", but, for example, you can forget about breaking 80 from the back tees at BPB.  It's an exercise in futility, especially in the Spring.  So, do you want to beat yourself up and not come close to achieving your goal, or, do you want to make a few birdies and enjoy your day ?

It is two completely different games. Birdie putts are harder to make than par putts. Par putta are more difficult than bogey putts and putts for double rarely miss.

Ditto the one hander when it doesn't count.

I agree about the order of difficulty on those putts, but, that's just a "head set".  The truth is that they're the exact same putts, but, they carry a different significance in your head.

I have no problem playing the back tees at GCGC.
I have a major problem playing the back tees at WFW, BPB, Shinnecock, Pine Tree, Boca Rio and many others.

Length, combined with conditions of the day, dictate tees for me, and, I'm still relatively long off the tee, but, I don't want to torture myself and hit 2, 3 and 4 irons all day long..

[John Kavanaugh]

Many of us have a comfort zone. Interesting term comfort zone. Leaving it sounds so uncomfortable.

[A.G._Crockett]

label or motto.

Instead of having "play it forward" as the catch phrase, it should be, "make more birdies and pars"

I recently played a course that I hadn't played in a decade, one that I had probably played over 100 times previously.

On the first hole, I played all the way back, just for the fun of it (par 5), then moved up to the next set of tees, which plays at about 6,700 in terms of pure yardage.

The course played long for me due to wind, overseeding, wet fairways, high cut fairways and my deteriorating game, and as the round progressed it dawned on my that I didn't have many "birdie" putts.  I consider "birdie" putts to be putts of 20 feet and less.

The more I thought about it, the more I felt that golfers who were reluctant to move up, had lost sight of an object of the game, namely, making more birdies and pars.

Ego and denial keep many from moving forward on courses that, objectively, are too long for them, because they're looking at the process in terms of their tee shots and not from the perspective of birdies and pars.

One is perceived as a negative, the other as a positive.

I love a challenge, but in order to enjoy that challenge, it has to be reasonable and commensurate with my abilities.

I prefer hitting 7 irons into greens versus 3-irons or fairway woods.

The problem I see is as follows.
On a firm and fast course, I can play it back, on courses that are soft, I can't play from the equivalent distance, so the key in determining tee selection isn't on the scorecard, it's in the ground.

And, the emphasis on getting golfers to play courses commensurate with their ability should be geared toward the positive, having "birdies" and "pars", and not geared toward moving up because you can't hit it as far.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Well said.

[A.G._Crockett]

  I'm a 7 who hits it pretty far for a guy on Medicare.  I must say, I get much more satisfaction shooting 81 on a 6700 yard course than a 78 on a 6300 yard course.  Most of my friends disagree.

"Satisfaction" is one possible reaction, and as a person of similar age and playing ability, I get why you feel that way.  "Enjoyment" is another possible (and valid, I think) reaction at the end of the round, though.

If I play from more than 6500, I just hit the same clubs over and over and over.  My score doesn't necessarily suffer much, but I don't enjoy golf as much.  All the par 5's become about laying up to a particular distance, most if not all of the par 4's are a long iron/hybrid/fairway wood in, and so on.  I can manage my ball well enough to be in places I can get up and down and make a lot of pars, but it gets repetitive.

And repetitive isn't a lot of fun, in GCA or in playing the game itself.

[Garland Bayley]

Play it forward is the wrong motto, because beat your buddies should do it. Birdies and pars are just nonsense noise that a very small percentage of golfers worry about. People should play match play and get rid of this me against the course nonsense. It's me against my friend in a friendly match that culminates in the loser forking over a token amount and the winner buying refreshments in the clubhouse.

Furthermore play if forward is the wrong motto, because it is based on the ignorance of a few players that GIR has some meaning to. The high handicapper (average player) can play it forward and have little or no effect on GIR. The high handicapper has trouble hitting it straight enough to do GIR from any range. If you want the world to play golf, don't be suggesting to people that they can get GIR by playing it forward. If you want GIR for the high handicapper increase the par on every hole by one. He can then get close enough to the GIR in 1, 2, or 3 on previously par 3, 4, and 5 that he can get his GIR if par is 4, 5, and 6.

Dostoyevsky wrote about the arrogance of the ignorant in "The Idiot" and boy did he get that right.

[Tim Martin]

The other day I took my young son to play golf in the late afternoon.
On the practice tee was an exceptional golfer, Chris Lange.
I told my son to watch his routine and that if he wanted to improve his game, that he needed to work at improving it and that the only way to work at improving it, was to practice, on and off the course.

Chris was there the entire time we were there.
Now, he's an exceptionally accomplished golfer, and he had hit balls prior to playing earlier in the day, but, here he was working on his game.
You won't see 14, 18 and 22 handicaps putting in that time.
Only those who love/enjoy the game and want to improve put in the time to practice.

Lower handicap golfers and golfers who aspire to improve are the ones willing to work hard at a game they love.[/color]

The biggest thing with kids and golf is to keep it fun. It is great to give them some guidance for improvement and point out the level of commitment it takes to become a low digit/competitive player. That said once practice is forced or expected only the Type A kids stay interested and the majority are driven away. Each kid should practice at the level that allows them to appreciate and develop a love for the game and things will sort themselves out and hopefully become a lifelong passion and pursuit. You can love the game without being a practicer although there is no doubt to consistently improve it is required on some level.

[Charlie_Bell]

Just a hunch, but I suspect "Play it forward" was market-tested and focus-grouped to a fare-thee-well...  And I suspect that the connotations of "forward" were extremely appealing and generally very positive.  Forward-thinking, fashion forward, forward march -- all of these  phrases denote something which is moving in the right direction.

"Make more birdies and pars" is seductive, but when the ego-driven player learns that the solution is to emasculate the experience by eschewing the tips, well, I'm not so sure the approach wouldn't backfire... What would Freud say?  

"Play it forward" emphasizes play, connotes a forward-thinking youthful attitude, suggests that playing from the back is outmoded or old-fashioned (a retreat), and as Jim K theorized, it plants the seed of the idea of playing faster.  It's a good slogan.

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