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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2014, 11:12:33 PM »
Peter,

I think the dilemma with comparisons in other fields is that the object of your comparison in other fields is static.

GCA is an interactive field of play.

And, those playing on that field have NOT remained static, they've changed, they've improved, hence, in order to preserve the original intended interaction, the field of play must be altered............. no ?

And therein lies another dilemma.

To what extent do you alter the field of play to compensate for and neutralize the improved play of those inteacting with the architecture ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2014, 06:43:52 AM »
Tom Doak,

To the architectural addicts on this site and perhaps to others, there's an interest in knowing where the "purity" lies.

Not just on Ross courses, but mostly, on all good to great courses.

"Building Sebonack" is the kind of roadmap or record that helps determine what was intended or perhaps, more accurately, what was built.

Patrick:

I'm all in favor of good documentation of what was originally built on great courses.  I've enjoyed looking through such records to help our consulting work at older courses, and I do intend to document my own work in some detail, before I go.

Books ABOUT courses are somewhat different.  "Building Sebonack" is the official record of what Mr. Pascucci wants you to think of the course, which is not necessarily an accurate historical record.  For example, I don't think it mentions that the drawings of the greens on display in the clubhouse were done AFTER the greens had been shaped in the field.  For all I know, it has been revised to blur memories of the original 14th and 16th holes, after Michael decided he wanted to change them.

And that's a contemporary account of a course which just happened!   Trying to reconstruct the truth of a course built 100 years ago is quite a bit tougher, witness the length of the famous Merion threads here.  For me, a thousand words are not worth a picture, unless those thousand words were written by the architect(s) of record.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2014, 09:11:25 AM »
Interesting thread, lots of good posts/points and debate. I've been more guilty than most of finding analogies from other arts and crafts and then foisting them upon gca; of seeing (or imagining) parallels between playwriting (or music-making or furniture-building etc) and golf course design, and of then drawing conclusions from those parallels both about gca's past and its future. And it struck me now, reading this thread, that I've been bringing the same approach to studying/analyzing the work of golf architects as I used to bring to bear on  great musicians and writers and filmmakers and philosophers and artists -- and that maybe that approach (and the related underlying assumptions about the creative process) don't really apply to gca at all. I won't argue the point (such as it is) one way or the other; I just note it as something that just occurred to me.

Peter

Peter, I'd love to hear you elaborate on this. I was thinking the same thing.

I can be a bit of a film, music, and literature snob. I have a graduate degree in English, so I was taught to overanalyze and pick apart works of art in those media, and I bring the same approach to golf courses that I play. I learned very early that it ultimately doesn't matter what the writer or director intended. All that matters, at least from a critical standpoint, is the result. To use an example, the character of Simon in "Lord of the Flies" has been widely identified as a representation of Christ in the novel. Personally, I have no clue whether Golding was deliberately thinking of Christ in his writing of Simon, or whether he just needed a completely moralistic character to kill in order to juxtapose the savagery around him, or whether he just thought "Hey let's have a good guy in the book too!" But it ultimately doesn't matter. Simon clearly parallels Christ in many ways, and therefore he can be considered a representation thereof regardless of the author's intent.

In my own writing, I've often written things with no intentional underlying meaning and then found what could be considered symbolism or underlying meanings when I revisit them. Regardless of whether or not it's intentional, it's still there.

Relating this to architecture, a few of the older courses with which I'm most familiar have a ton of holes where very subtle slopes or visual cues on the skyline or hazards too short to be in play end up having a much larger-than-expected affect on how I play them. I'm sure in some cases the architect foresaw that affect, but in others I suspect the hole just materialized as it did for reasons of time, space, or budget constraints. Regardless of the architect's intent and conceptual foresight, the bottom line is that architecture with those features creates sublime golf while architecture that doesn't stinks.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2014, 09:33:01 AM »
Peter,

I think the dilemma with comparisons in other fields is that the object of your comparison in other fields is static.

GCA is an interactive field of play.

And, those playing on that field have NOT remained static, they've changed, they've improved, hence, in order to preserve the original intended interaction, the field of play must be altered............. no ?

And therein lies another dilemma.

To what extent do you alter the field of play to compensate for and neutralize the improved play of those inteacting with the architecture ?

Pat,
What about the basketball, football baseball playing fields?  How would you alter those to "compensate for and neutralize the improved play"
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2014, 09:40:23 AM »
Is it fair to say the main thing the Ross name brings to 300 of the 400 courses he designed brand identity and marketing? :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2014, 10:11:19 AM »
Pat, Jason - yes, there is the interactive element/difference, and the changing vs static aspect. But off the top of my head, here are a few more differences (obvious ones, I know):

in no other art-craft is the prima materia such a fact/presence, and in no other creative endeavour does this fact play such an integral and essential part of the finished work. The land in gca is truly unique amongst the tools and tablets that artists-craftsmen use in their work, ie in making music or writing books and building furniture etc.

in no other art-craft is the creative product so singular, and so fixed in time and place. There is only one of any given golf course, one Pine Valley say, and it was and is and always will be found in that one same spot in New Jersey, and to interact with it the golfer has to travel there; which unlike the millions of copies of great music (on cds) or plays (in books and online) cannot be interacted with over decades and centuries by millions of people (potentially) at the same time, and regardless of where they are in the world

in no other art-craft does the creative product change so much (or even at all) over time -- indeed, as you note, change is inherent in a golf course (as, even without any human intervention, trees will grow and greens will settle and turf will change etc) while it is absolutely lacking in most other arts-crafts

and then of course there is the man-made change in gca that is almost wholly lacking in every other art-form – the changes to golf courses that start occurring literally from the moment the architect's plans start being actualized on the ground: the architect changes his mind, his/her associates make suggestions/changes, the building crew brings their ideas/process/talents/limitations to the table, the client asks for changes post-facto, the next greens chair (and the one after that, and the one after that) altars greens or lengthens tees or adds trees or removes trees, the maintenance crews and superintendent narrow fairways or widen them or get the greens and fairways running faster or slower etc etc. In short, in gca unlike any other art-craft, change is the only constant

I (and others) can no doubt list many other differences. So what do these differences mean in terms of how we study/analyze the great courses and the work of the great architects? Well, it seems to me that I can't (even though I've done exactly that in the past) approach, say, Pine Valley as I do Moby Dick – a fixed, unchanging, unaltered and unalterable, readily available to me and millions of others work of art created by one person, at a specific time, with no restrictions (other than the writer's talent and intentions) imposed on it from the start by the prima materia/the medium, and no changing interactivity save for the changes that have occurred in me over the years (from when i first read it as a teenager to as I read it now 30 years later).

All of which is to say (as in my first post), that there may be approaches/assumptions involved in studying and analyzing and judging gca that we have carried over from other subjects that simply aren't applicable in the way we think. Again, I won't argue the point because I'm not sure of it, but just to say

Peter
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 10:16:23 AM by PPallotta »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2014, 10:17:09 AM »
Mike Young,

Football fields have been modified several times.

The goal posts were moved from the goal line to the end line and the hash marks were moved more toward the center of the field.

The difference in basketball, football, baseball and golf is that in golf the ball isn't vied for, the ball always remains in the sole possession of the golfer.  And the ball is a singular spec ball.

Baseball field are modified all the time.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2014, 10:28:15 AM »
Mike Young,

Football fields have been modified several times.

The goal posts were moved from the goal line to the end line and the hash marks were moved more toward the center of the field.

The difference in basketball, football, baseball and golf is that in golf the ball isn't vied for, the ball always remains in the sole possession of the golfer.  And the ball is a singular spec ball.

Baseball field are modified all the time.
Pat,
I understand the modifications you mention above but the basic fields have remained the same lengths.  College baseball took the aluminum bat and pop flies became home runs.  The Easton bat was much more "live" than the Nike and it showed in several CWS.  And at one time the ball was more alive for a few seasons....every sport entices the participants with equipment gains.  In football we have lighter shoulder pads, shoes, no knee pads ( for bozos ;D), and gloves that have changed receiving and pass completion records unfairly.  But we do agree it seems to always come back to the BALL.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2014, 12:57:57 PM »
As for Lake Wales, the Tufts Archives has a listing (http://www.tuftsarchives.org/ross-course-listing.html) that appears to be more up to date than either of the previously noted sources.  On their list, Lake Pierce CC is noted but Lake Wales is not.  I'd suggest that the Tufts Archive listing is probably the best source right now for anyone who cares to research Ross' work.

While the Tufts Ross list doesn't directly include Lake Wales Country Club, the actual record for Lake Pierce notes, "AKA Lake Wales Country Club."  My guess is that this AKA listing is what has caused the confusion.   http://tuftsarchives.com/vex/vex1/85B025F3-751A-4470-92CC-426027245280.htm

_____________________________________________________

Ken mentions the controversy surrounding who actually designed Lake Wales. The most interesting attribution of work on a course I've seen is on Ravisloe's website, which touts Theodore Moreau as one of the two men who laid out the original course in 1901. Theodore J. Moreau of Langford and Moreau fame was about 11 years old at the time. I have no idea whether (in descending order of likelihood) the course history is inaccurate, another Theodore Moreau worked on Ravisloe, or whether child labor laws at the time allowed a preteen shaper to do a bunch of work on a course in Chicago in 1901. I don't guess the answer really matters, but I do find stuff like that interesting. I mean, that's one of the primary reasons for the existence of a site like this, isn't it?

For what it worth, Tom MacWood attributed early Ravisloe as follows:  Ravisloe - James Foulis (1901), Robert White (1903), William Watson and Aleck Bauer (1910).  Watson has been discussed above in reference to White Bear, and Bauer was the author/editor of the "Hazards," published in 1913. I haven't retraced Tom's steps on this, but I trust his research more than that Moreau reference.

__________________________________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rxMZpNF3qN0
(I am pretty sure I can hear some of Tom's fans in the background.)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 01:03:42 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2014, 01:33:56 PM »
One of my old Chicago Aerial threads with some info on Watson and Ross' role at Ravisloe.  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37692.0.html

« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 01:43:53 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2014, 02:23:21 PM »

While the Tufts Ross list doesn't directly include Lake Wales Country Club, the actual record for Lake Pierce notes, "AKA Lake Wales Country Club."  My guess is that this AKA listing is what has caused the confusion.   http://tuftsarchives.com/vex/vex1/85B025F3-751A-4470-92CC-426027245280.htm



Ironically, listed as "NLE."
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 02:28:50 PM by Ken Fry »

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2014, 02:27:58 PM »

That's the part of the argument where we diverge.  I don't think you can choose what "best reflects Ross' design principles," or my own.  We build what we think is appropriate on each site, and the sum of that work is our principles -- breaking it down into 13 rules or simple sound bites misses the point.

Indeed, Dr. MacKenzie drew up his 13 Ideals of Golf Course Architecture in his 1920 book, and in his follow-up manuscript just a dozen years later, he pointed out how he had ignored his own rules here and there in the course of his work.  His very first ideal was that the course, where possible, should be arranged in two loops of nine holes, and here's what he had to say about that a few years later:

"During recent years in the United States I have had more sleepless nights owing to committees being obsessed by this principle than anything else, and I have often regretted that it had ever been propounded.

If land for a golf course lends itself readily to constructing the two loops, well and good, but it is a great mistake to sacrifice excellent natural features for the purpose of obtaining it.  Most of the world's best known courses, such as nearly all the British Championship courses, The National, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, and many others I could name, are without loops.  There is a charm in exploring fresh country and never seeing the same view twice until one arrives back at the clubhouse."

Likewise, Donald Ross' first order of business was to find a great routing.  If you really understood how he did that so well, you should be making a living in this business, because nobody today does any better.  I don't think it can be simplified, and spotting tendencies is to ignore the many exceptions which made his work so great and so hard to pin down.


Tom,

Your response here sums up to me why it's so interesting to follow the historical threads about a course's evolution.  Ross and MacKenzie may have had somewhat steadfast guidelines they would prefer to follow but at the end of the day their projects reflected a desire to route the best course possible from the terrain available to work with.  If the best routing dictated a break from those guidelines, then so be it.

Ken

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2014, 02:45:42 PM »

While the Tufts Ross list doesn't directly include Lake Wales Country Club, the actual record for Lake Pierce notes, "AKA Lake Wales Country Club."  My guess is that this AKA listing is what has caused the confusion.   http://tuftsarchives.com/vex/vex1/85B025F3-751A-4470-92CC-426027245280.htm


Ironically, listed as "NLE."

Ironically and accurately, at least when it comes to the Lake Pierce CC part.  I guess the Ross Society and the golf club were able to decipher the "AKA" abbreviation, but not "NLE."  

Did you play the course?  If so, does it have anything one might expect to find on a Raynor design?  

Out of curiosity I took a look at a 1941 aerial of the area.  The quality and resolution were pretty poor, but when I squinted I could sort of make out some features that one might expect to find on a Raynor course.  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 02:48:09 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2014, 02:52:33 PM »

Ironically and accurately, at least when it comes to the Lake Pierce CC part.  I guess the Ross Society and the golf club were able to decipher the "AKA" abbreviation, but not "NLE."  

Did you play the course?  If so, does it have anything one might expect to find on a Raynor design?  

Out of curiosity I took a look at a 1941 aerial of the area.  The quality and resolution were pretty poor, but if I squinted I could maybe make out some features that one might expect to find on a Raynor course.
 

I didn't get to play at Lake Wales.  I haven't left Mountain Lake's property and ventured out.  In searching through old threads here, there was mention it's not a bad course but no discussion about any identifiable attributes for template holes.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2014, 03:11:27 PM »
Seeing as we've touched on more than a handful of Ross questions, perhaps it makes sense to have some kind of ongoing discussion of the discrepancies in the record (for those that are interested).  If you guys think this is better off in a new thread, I'm open to starting one.  I'd offer up some basic guidelines for the discussion:

A.  We're trying to identify the mysteries, so there are no bad questions.  That being said, it probably makes sense to avoid pure speculation.

B.  If the discussion of a particular course looks like its going to overwhelm the thread, please move it to its own home.

C.  Much of the record has evolved over the last few years, so if any particular sources are noted as being out of date, the intention isn't to call out that particular source, but rather to note any new information that has come to light.  (For example, Brad Klein has noted that he started a list of updates to Discovering Donald Ross almost immediately after it was published.  Hopefully this thread can help him in that process.)

D.  Lets keep it civil.

I'll start with a basic list (please add in some more):

CC of Mobile - 27 holes in 1918 or 18 in 1928
Penninsula G&CC - 18 new holes or an 18 hole remodel
Hartford GC - What did Ross do here in 1946
Belleair CC #2 - Was this work in 1915 or 1925
Fort George Island - 9 or 18 Ross holes
Fort Myers G&CC - 1916 or 1928
New Smyrna GC - 1922 or 1947
Brunswick CC - 9 or 18 Ross holes
Savannah GC - new course or remodel

Here's a list of courses that are noted in one source but not others (many of these have probably been verified):

DuPont CC - new 18 hole course in 1923
Longboat Key Club - new 18 hole course in 1924
Miami Shores CC - new 18 hole course in 1919
CC of Orlando - new 18 hole course in 1918
Sarasota G&CC - new 18 hole course in the 1920's
Venetia CC - new 18 hole course in 1925
Jekyll Island GC - new 18 hole course in 1909
Savannah Municipal #4 - new 18 hole course in 1926
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2014, 03:48:27 PM »
Peninsula was originally Beresford Country Club.  There were 18 holes already in existence on the same (or at least partially the same) site.   The following is linked from the tufts archives website at http://tuftsarchives.com/vex/vex1/images/A06C9959-D7EE-43AF-8384-809083627424.jpg.  Tufts doesn't identify the publication (they apparently got it from Geoff Shackleford.)



The blurb doesn't quite answer your question.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2014, 04:08:23 PM »
This fascinating thread reveals a great deal about the tension between the artist and the critic, and the discussions of golf course architecture in relation to other arts and sports have been very stimulating to this recovering professor of literature.  Tom Doak, like many in different artistic fields over the centuries, is chiefly motivated to do his creative work.  He is far less interested, and even sceptical, of the legitimate and fundamental work that critics do as they try to describe what, if fact, the artist actually did, how well it was done, and if it reflects an overriding artistic movement, a coherent theory of art, etc.  He is also wary, as artists rightly must be, of critics who try to imagine what the artist revealed about himself, his creative processes, his chief artistic influences, his temperament and neuroses even.  Tom admitted that he roams this website, in part, to correct errors some critics, of whatever stamp, make about his work.

I've known artists whose scepticism and wariness were so powerful that they refused to examine the sources of their own creativity.  They were as likely to tell a critic such things as , "I don't know what the poem means.  I just wrote it.  You figure it out, if you think the poem's worth your effort."  One poet told me he didn't want to examine where his creativity came from, for fear that his self-analysis could lead to second-guessing his impulses, even artistic paralysis.  Artists often fear that too much intellectualizing about their art cannot but cripple it, so many of them leave that kind of work to the critics.  Very healthy artists, moreover, don't pay much attention to what critics say and write, even those whom they respect and trust to keep to their legitimate business of giving as objective a recounting of what they see the artist has actually made.

In defense of his scepticism, though, Tom gives insufficient credit to the critical effort so many in this thread enjoin: learning exactly what Donald Ross did, how much he did, and creating a legitimate, thorough listing of his contributions at the courses that claim his authorship, if you will.  This task is akin to the literary scholar's and the musicologist's efforts to produce a complete canon of the artist's works, in the most authentic texts or scores available.   That task provides a rock-solid basis on which the interpretation of the art can proceed: discerning and articulating the quality of the artistry.  Doak seems to understand this, as suggested by his repeated claims that he will give the scholars and critics his own accounts of what he did and, where possible, why.  That will be an inestimable boon for scholars and critics, and a major contribution to both the understanding and appreciation of  his works.  Personally, I'm not entirely confident he will do much of this accounting, as he has far more important, creative work to do.  And most of us will be happier if he does his new golf courses rather than spending his time trying to remember and figure out what he did with his earlier courses.

This thread has also raised questions about the static nature of some arts as opposed to the evolving nature of golf courses.  Literary texts and musical scores, for example, are static in the sense that, once published, they're done.  But they're as about done as a golf course on opening day.  Many an author or composer, like Donald Ross puttering around #2 for all the years he lived on the third hole, never finishes revising his works -- usually the process continues throughout their lives and is revealed in the collected editions that appear over the decades.  Such works are as evolving as a Donald Ross golf course. 

In addition, just as with an original Ross course, for which we have architectural drawings, the drawings are sometimes merely the equivalent to a poet's or composer's first draft.  Once transferred to the construction site, the drawings get the creative process going.  But the land soon becomes the most compelling character in the process, as wise architects, like wise novelists, let the work take over and move as and where it must, based on the artistic imperatives generated by the preliminary shaping and routing on the land.  Drawings recede in importance and the needs of course itself begin to emerge out of the land and the skills of the workers on the site.  This is just as it should be in art.  And if the artist isn't always sure why he moved away from the drawings, that he had to move away from them was never in doubt.  No matter if he can't (or refuses) to explain the process; the successfully completed course itself will reveal the wisdom of his creative swerve.

There is another crucial matter that's drawn some enlightening thought in this thread, and it's the question of a Donald Ross course's evolution when a later superintendent or greens chairman or architect modifies it.  "How much Ross, indeed!"   Knowing who did what to the course when it was renovated or reconstructed or enhanced or restored is essential for a proper understanding both of Ross's contribution and an evaluation of the revised course.  Ross created some gems; we know all too well that subsequent individuals tarnished that work, while others enhanced the quality of the design and the pleasure of playability for their contemporaries.  In other arts as well, this same type of outcome is familiar.  For example, when Hollywood took the text of Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights and turned its tragic ending into a comedic one, many critics found the reversal revolting.  But when Vladimir Horowitz revised the scores of great composers like Wagner and Liszt, the composers often felt he'd enhanced their works and acceded easily to the new version as the, for example, Liszt-Horowitz "Hungarian Rhapsodies."  It is as fitting, and honest, for a revised Donald Ross course to carry both architects' names as it is for a production of a Shakespeare play (Olivier's Hamlet), a film ( Ken Russell's versions of D.H Lawrence's novels ), a musical composition, or a ballet (any of the classical works Balanchine made his own).

Golf course architecture is as evolutionary as many of the other arts, and those most interested in the form and its greatest practitioners should want to know precisely what the artist accomplished, as a basis for enabling critics to evaluate the artistic merits, the quality, of such work.  Both tasks are important, but the creative process precedes and is foundational for the analytical.  The more we can learn from original documents and from the artists words themselves, the better prepared critics shall be to make reliable evaluations.  We must never expect, however, that evaluation can be reduced to a handful of aesthetic criteria that can be used as a measuring device.  Originality and creativity will always leave artistic tenets and lists behind.  Great art makes its own distinctive rules.

JMEvensky

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Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2014, 04:38:06 PM »
Frank Giordano,please post more often.

Regarding the Wuthering Heights/Horowitz comparison,I've always thought literature is considered more "sacred" than music--especially with regard to interpretation.Music requires somebody to interpret it,the musician.But a novel requires no middle man--foreign translations excepted.Each reader derives his/her own meaning.

I don't think I could've gone further afield from Donald Ross' golf courses.

Bet the ranch,Peter Pallotta is going to engage in this discussion--and it will be worth reading.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2014, 08:44:04 PM »
Frank,

You are able to approach a discussion like this with a much different perspective.  With your background in literature and art, you know the process of creating something very personal.  I am not capable of painting or sculpting something others would find appealing.  I can write but only to attempt to communicate thoughts in my head and even then it's lacking.  I can sing but only my wife and kids think I'm any good (they have to and of course are biased anyway).  One thing I'm positive of is I could not design a golf course.  Not at least one I would like to play all the time.  I don't possess that creative gene that combined with an engineering mind can produce amazing results.

I enjoy the architects' insights in discussions like these because they bring to the table different perspectives of their craft and their business.  It's difficult to craft art which must also fit someone's business model.

I've never been a fan of the word "critic" because it immediately strikes me as negative.  It immediately makes me think of "critical."  I can't create a course but I'm not a critic either.  A critic implies the person is an expert.  Some here are experts, many are not.   I know what I like when I see it.  I just can't make it myself.

Ken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2014, 09:07:06 PM »
This fascinating thread reveals a great deal about the tension between the artist and the critic, and the discussions of golf course architecture in relation to other arts and sports have been very stimulating to this recovering professor of literature.  Tom Doak, like many in different artistic fields over the centuries, is chiefly motivated to do his creative work.  He is far less interested, and even sceptical, of the legitimate and fundamental work that critics do as they try to describe what, if fact, the artist actually did, how well it was done, and if it reflects an overriding artistic movement, a coherent theory of art, etc.  He is also wary, as artists rightly must be, of critics who try to imagine what the artist revealed about himself, his creative processes, his chief artistic influences, his temperament and neuroses even.  Tom admitted that he roams this website, in part, to correct errors some critics, of whatever stamp, make about his work.

I've known artists whose scepticism and wariness were so powerful that they refused to examine the sources of their own creativity.  They were as likely to tell a critic such things as , "I don't know what the poem means.  I just wrote it.  You figure it out, if you think the poem's worth your effort."  One poet told me he didn't want to examine where his creativity came from, for fear that his self-analysis could lead to second-guessing his impulses, even artistic paralysis.  Artists often fear that too much intellectualizing about their art cannot but cripple it, so many of them leave that kind of work to the critics.  Very healthy artists, moreover, don't pay much attention to what critics say and write, even those whom they respect and trust to keep to their legitimate business of giving as objective a recounting of what they see the artist has actually made.

In defense of his scepticism, though, Tom gives insufficient credit to the critical effort so many in this thread enjoin: learning exactly what Donald Ross did, how much he did, and creating a legitimate, thorough listing of his contributions at the courses that claim his authorship, if you will.  This task is akin to the literary scholar's and the musicologist's efforts to produce a complete canon of the artist's works, in the most authentic texts or scores available.   That task provides a rock-solid basis on which the interpretation of the art can proceed: discerning and articulating the quality of the artistry.  Doak seems to understand this, as suggested by his repeated claims that he will give the scholars and critics his own accounts of what he did and, where possible, why.  That will be an inestimable boon for scholars and critics, and a major contribution to both the understanding and appreciation of  his works.  Personally, I'm not entirely confident he will do much of this accounting, as he has far more important, creative work to do.  And most of us will be happier if he does his new golf courses rather than spending his time trying to remember and figure out what he did with his earlier courses.

This thread has also raised questions about the static nature of some arts as opposed to the evolving nature of golf courses.  Literary texts and musical scores, for example, are static in the sense that, once published, they're done.  But they're as about done as a golf course on opening day.  Many an author or composer, like Donald Ross puttering around #2 for all the years he lived on the third hole, never finishes revising his works -- usually the process continues throughout their lives and is revealed in the collected editions that appear over the decades.  Such works are as evolving as a Donald Ross golf course. 

In addition, just as with an original Ross course, for which we have architectural drawings, the drawings are sometimes merely the equivalent to a poet's or composer's first draft.  Once transferred to the construction site, the drawings get the creative process going.  But the land soon becomes the most compelling character in the process, as wise architects, like wise novelists, let the work take over and move as and where it must, based on the artistic imperatives generated by the preliminary shaping and routing on the land.  Drawings recede in importance and the needs of course itself begin to emerge out of the land and the skills of the workers on the site.  This is just as it should be in art.  And if the artist isn't always sure why he moved away from the drawings, that he had to move away from them was never in doubt.  No matter if he can't (or refuses) to explain the process; the successfully completed course itself will reveal the wisdom of his creative swerve.

There is another crucial matter that's drawn some enlightening thought in this thread, and it's the question of a Donald Ross course's evolution when a later superintendent or greens chairman or architect modifies it.  "How much Ross, indeed!"   Knowing who did what to the course when it was renovated or reconstructed or enhanced or restored is essential for a proper understanding both of Ross's contribution and an evaluation of the revised course.  Ross created some gems; we know all too well that subsequent individuals tarnished that work, while others enhanced the quality of the design and the pleasure of playability for their contemporaries.  In other arts as well, this same type of outcome is familiar.  For example, when Hollywood took the text of Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights and turned its tragic ending into a comedic one, many critics found the reversal revolting.  But when Vladimir Horowitz revised the scores of great composers like Wagner and Liszt, the composers often felt he'd enhanced their works and acceded easily to the new version as the, for example, Liszt-Horowitz "Hungarian Rhapsodies."  It is as fitting, and honest, for a revised Donald Ross course to carry both architects' names as it is for a production of a Shakespeare play (Olivier's Hamlet), a film ( Ken Russell's versions of D.H Lawrence's novels ), a musical composition, or a ballet (any of the classical works Balanchine made his own).

Golf course architecture is as evolutionary as many of the other arts, and those most interested in the form and its greatest practitioners should want to know precisely what the artist accomplished, as a basis for enabling critics to evaluate the artistic merits, the quality, of such work.  Both tasks are important, but the creative process precedes and is foundational for the analytical.  The more we can learn from original documents and from the artists words themselves, the better prepared critics shall be to make reliable evaluations.  We must never expect, however, that evaluation can be reduced to a handful of aesthetic criteria that can be used as a measuring device.  Originality and creativity will always leave artistic tenets and lists behind.  Great art makes its own distinctive rules.

Frank:

Thanks for your post.  It helped me sort out what I'm fighting against, though it's not exactly what you think.  It's fair to note that I was once considered more of a critic than an artist myself -- and I'm about to open myself up to the charge of wanting it both ways again, when I publish a revision of The Confidential Guide -- and that has helped to make me skeptical of criticism. 

Indeed, I kind of wonder where are these critics you speak of?  Pretty much everybody who could claim it is also an architect, or at least a consultant.  Some of the guys who participate here have done remarkable research about certain architects or certain courses, but it's hard to fit it into a larger picture, since they don't know that much about how golf courses are created.

There are lots of differences between golf architecture and other art forms, as Peter Pallotta started to summarize earlier in this thread.  But to me one of the most important facts is that the golf course architect doesn't create the art by himself.  I suppose it's something like making movies, in the auteur form where the director also has major input into the script and story, but it's certainly not like painting or sculpture or writing or music where one man (or woman) may do all the parts alone.  It's possible to do that in golf course design, but why would you, unless you were a complete egomaniac?

I've understood the benefits of a talented crew since my first summer working for Pete Dye, and I think a lot of my success comes from embracing that -- and being willing to pay for it.  By allowing others to contribute, I've attracted a lot of talented people to help make my courses better, though they tend to come and go.  I'm 100% certain that Alister MacKeznie and Donald Ross and the rest of them did the same thing, in their own ways.

The problem is that most of the business pretends otherwise.  Architects allow themselves to be put on pedestals, by their clients and by golf writers.  Their associates or shapers get minimal credit.  And when someone like me does give the credit, some see it as diminishing what I do ... as if I don't do as much on my own courses as Jack Nicklaus or Jeff Brauer do on theirs!  Then people start speculating on which of my associates was really the talent behind the throne, which just moves the pretending one step down the ladder.  None of my associates have done any of these projects on their own, either.  They've all contributed, hopefully greatly, considering what they've been paid; but they've done so in ways that very few people understand or appreciate, and their roles have been very different from one job to another.

I'd be perfectly comfortable talking about this in detail for any one of the golf courses I've built, and I've probably done so as much as any architect alive.  But it undermines my business to do so.  Our clients want to tell the story of my vision for the project ... not that a good part of their course was, say, Brian Schneider's vision.  In fact, my own associates would often prefer that I just take the credit, because we get paid more if the course is seen as being "mine".  [They change their minds once they want to compete with us for work.]  But to pretend it's all about me, I've got to spend precious days of my life making appearances that I know aren't really necessary, and doing p.r. work on clients' behalf where I'm encouraged to fudge the truth, instead of spending that time doing the creative work I enjoy, or playing golf.

What bothers me about attempts to understand and document history is that I hate to see the veil lifted from some architects, while others get a pass.  And that's often what I see.  The same guys who want to prove that Alister MacKenzie was a grandstander whose finished product relied on Perry Maxwell, hold up George Thomas or George Crump or someone else as pure, undiluted genius. 

If you don't understand what Brian Slawnik does for me, and why it's so hard to quantify, how are you going to reconstruct what Walter Hatch did for Donald Ross, and how valuable that was? 

The truth is complicated -- and that's a great story in its own right.  But can you handle the truth?

J.D. Griffith

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Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2014, 09:17:47 PM »
They say perception is greater than reality, and in the world of GCA, that can be the case as well.  

J.D. Griffith

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Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2014, 09:35:08 PM »
As students of the art, fans, critics, purists, whatever you want to call us you can tie too much to a single name.  I look at Big Fish, for example that I am a fan of, and have played frequently.  The name attached to it is Pete Dye.  But Tim Liddy has his fingerprints all over it.  How about Mike Langkau the shaper, or even Matt Vandelac one of the original owners, and the club pro in it's unsettled formative years?  This is just a course that is ten years old, and most would say it was designed by Pete Dye.  Which is only part of the story.   History and the study of design and architecture can even become more convoluted, and clouded when we are not discussing a single decade, but a century old course?  While I applaud those that check train records, and newspaper clippings, and ask the tough questions, they too are only getting a piece of the history of the course in question.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2014, 11:18:05 PM »
J.D,

While it's true that we'll never know the attribution for every single feature, on opening day and subsequently, we can establish the author and overseer, the man identified as the architect responsible for the product.

Those who work for him weren't prone to introducing radical or contrary architectural principles.

Rick Shefchik

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Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2014, 12:29:26 AM »
The film director and the golf course architect might be the closest comparison we can find. After the final scene of a Steven Spielberg film, those of us who enjoy reading credits might linger in the theater another seven or eight minutes watching hundreds of names scroll by. We don't know any of them, but after seeing how many there are, it's impossible to believe that A Steven Spielberg Film is anything but a collaborative effort among supremely talented craftsmen. Still, Spielberg deserves the lion's share of the credit for bringing them together and putting them in a position to make crucial contributions to his work of art.

Movie credits probably take a little of the magic away from the final product if you stop to think about -- or already know -- exactly what a gaffer or a best boy or grip does. In that sense, I'm glad golf courses are not annotated to that fine a degree -- "Left greenside bunker on 16: Mitch Backhoe," etc. I know Tom Doak employs a talented crew, just as Steven Spielberg does. If that's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Extrapolating backward, the same had to have been true of Ross, Tillinghast, MacKenzie, etc. -- just as it was for DeMille, Ford, Hitchcock, etc. The frustration we sometimes feel here arises because golf courses sometimes get mis-attributed, whereas old films never are. We know the name of the director of virtually every commercial film ever made. But if that leads us to think we would always know a John Ford or Alfred Hitchcock film if somehow the director's name were not attached, we're almost certainly presuming more familiarity with that director's creative scope than is warranted.

Part of my work involves searching for the identities of the creators of old golf courses, but I sometimes think we'd enjoy golf -- and movies -- just as much, if not more, if we didn't have a clue who did what.    
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom_Doak

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Re: How Much of Ross' 407 Can We Trust?
« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2014, 06:00:30 AM »
Part of my work involves searching for the identities of the creators of old golf courses, but I sometimes think we'd enjoy golf -- and movies -- just as much, if not more, if we didn't have a clue who did what.    

Well said.

Both would probably cost less that way, too.