[BCowan]

Jason

   I totally understand what you are saying. You have to compare apples to apples.  Kinglsey and Sand Hills aren't anywhere near the same weather as Cinci.  Cinci is very humid and high 80's low 90's all summer.  I also think if one plays a course with poor drainage and they have Zoysia fairways that you can't compare apples to apples.  It is simply a drainage problem, and Zoysia can't be labeled soft.  I have aerated grass in Cinci area in Sept and the Zoysia was firmer than the blue/rye/fescue grass in other areas.  I don't know if it is sticky grass to play golf on in season.

[BHoover]

If we're ignoring fescue courses, then the US course that was the most F&F I've played would be Royal Isabela GC in Puerto Rico (hey, PR is a US territory, so it counts).  The course is bermuda (not sure what type), but it was incredibly F&F when I played it in February 2012.

[BCowan]

Brian

   Thinking of going there next winter.  How much to play this F&F course in the tropics?  I hope it isn't $290.  I think winter is their drier months but still. 

[Sven Nilsen]

As with most topics around here these days, this has been covered before.  Here's an old thread on the subject:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45806.0.html

As its now three years old, perhaps the list we came up with back then needs to be updated:

Consistently F&F:

Pacific Dunes (Doak)
Bandon Dunes (Kidd)
Bandon Trails (C&C)
Old MacDonald (Doak/Urbina)
Ballyneal (Doak)
Kingsley (DeVries)
Greywalls (DeVries)

High Potential for F&F:

Arizona
Desert Mountain (Outlaw) (JN)
Desert Forest (Lawrence)
Vista Verde (Kavanaugh)

California
San Francisco* (Tillinghast)
MPCC Shore (Strantz)
Cal Club (Macan, Philips)
Rustic Canyon* (Hanse)
Barona Creek (Baird, Eckenrode)

Colorado
Common Ground (Doak)
Colorado GC (C&C)

Florida
The Concession (JN)

Georgia
ANGC* (MacKenzie, Jones)
Sea Island (Seaside)
Cuscowilla (C&C)
Long Shadow* (Young)

Kansas
Prairie Dunes* (Maxwell)

Idaho
Huntsman Springs (Kidd)

Illinois
Shepherds Crook (Foster)

Maine
Cape Arundel (Travis)

Maryland
Beechtree (NLE) (Doak)

Massachusetts
Sankaty Head (Armstrong)
The Country Club (Hunnewell, Curtis, Bacon, Campbell, Flynn)
Old Sandwich (C&C)
Boston GC (Hanse)

Michigan
Lost Dunes (Doak)
Dunes Club* (Nugent)

Montana
Rock Creek (Doak)

Nebraska
Wild Horse (Axland & Proctor)
Sand Hills (C&C)
Bayside (Axland & Proctor)

New Jersey
Hidden Creek (C&C)
Mountain Ridge (Ross)
Bayonne (Bergstol)

New York
Garden City (Emmet)
Shinnecock (Dunn, Wilson)
Fishers Island (Raynor)
NGLA (CBM, Raynor)

North Carolina
Pinehurst* (Ross et al.)
Diamond Creek (Fazio)
Carolina GC (Ross)
Mountaintop (Fazio)

Oregon
Pronghorn* (JN)(Fazio)
Tetherow (Kidd)
Juniper (Harbottle)

Pennsylvania
Huntingdon Valley (Flynn)
Merion (depends who you ask)
Stonewall (Old) (Doak)
Oakmont (Fownes)

Rhode Island
Newport CC (Tillinghast, Davis)

South Carolina
The Ocean Course (Dye)
Yeamans Hall (Raynor)
Palmetto (Hitchcock, Leeds, MacKenzie)

Texas
Wolf Point (Nuzzo)
Rawls Course (Doak)

Washington
Chambers Bay (RTJ Jr.)
Wine Valley (Hixson)

Wisconsin
Spring Valley (Langford & Moreau)

Wyoming
Rochelle Ranch (Kavanaugh)

Canada
Sagebrush (Zokol, Whitman, Suny)

*denotes courses where the F&F nature has been questioned

[BHoover]

Royal Isabela definitely was not cheap; in fact, it might be the most expensive round I've ever played.  I was on the island for a wedding and the groom and his friends arranged to play the course (and invited me to join them).  It was definitely worth playing, but like I said, not cheap.  The club fancies itself as a national/international destination club (at least it did in 2012).  I'm not sure whether the model is viable, so the club may be open to visitors.

February was the perfect month to be in Puerto Rico.  The weather was warm (low 80s) and no humidity.  Not sure that the course would be F&F in the heat of summer, but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd want to be in PR in the middle of summer either.

Royal Isabela is on the NW coast of the island.  Just down the road is a pretty awesome surfing beach (if you're into that, which I'm not).  But it's a fairly easy drive from San Juan.

[Ari Techner]

Lookout Mountain in Lookout Mountain, GA.   As long as weather permits superintendent Mark Stovall keeps the place very firm and fast.  I always thought about how if he ever left and they hired a super who did not share the same commitment to firm and fast the place could go downhill very fast.  I'll never forget taking my dad out there on a day where the course was literally perfect IMO, a little brown tinge and very firm, fast and bouncy.  He looked at me and asked me why my course wasn't greener and in better shape.   We had an interesting discussion after that.

Prairie Dunes is another good example though it's built on sand.  

[Sven Nilsen]

The interesting question in this analysis is determining what courses not only play F&F but also have design features that are married to F&F conditioning.

[Jason Thurman]

Pat, if you don't think it's rare to get 30 yards of roll with consistency on a bentgrass course in the Ohio Valley, then surely you can name a few courses where you can.

I've played on fine fescue all over the country. I know what fast and firm actually looks like. I've lived in two of your bordering states, and I know that bentgrass can be maintained much firmer in the milder summers you get in the Upper Midwest. I've also played hundreds, probably thousands of rounds of golf on bentgrass fairways in the Ohio Valley. My experience tells me you're disappointed a lot if you expect more than 30 yards of roll off the tee on bentgrass around here, but I'm excited for you to give me a few courses to add to my must-play list that will break me of my pessimism and continue to wait for you to share them.

Ben, zoysia is very sticky. I wouldn't call it soft necessarily, and you don't get a lot of mud from it in season as it really forms a very thick mat. But it definitely doesn't play fast unless maintained very tight, and not many clubs do. Even at its fastest, it's still pretty slow.

[Keith OHalloran]

I have only played it once, it was in May, and I am not sure if it rained before I played, so take it for what it is worth, but Secession was amazingly F &F when I played it.  It took a while to adjust to how short you could land and still end up on the green, and not over the back.

[Tom_Doak]

Zoysia may be firm under the right conditions, but I have never seen it anywhere close to being a "fast" surface, it's more like Velcro than pavement.  I know that Doug Petersan thought he could make it perform differently but I don't know if he ever got to where he wanted ... is Austin Golf Club zoysia?

[Chris_Hufnagel]

This would be course you would recommend a greens chairman to play or just a friend on the merits of the course being set up F&F on a consistent basis (weather permitting).

Kingsley Club  

First, Kingsley has fescue fairways - so your own nomination runs counter to the title of your own thread...

Second, notwithstanding the above, in the spirit of your thread, which I believe is to "where to take a greens committee or friend to show them the fun that can be had on a firm and fast course" - even if you did include Kingsley, I am not sure that is where I would take them - and this come from someone who loves the Kingsley Club.

I strongly agree with Mr. Thurman's point-of-view, Kingsley is a little radical at times (GCAer's like to call it polarizing) and as a result some find it too severe in places, especially, but not limited to, the set of players who are of the "pencil and scorecard" ilk - which I would estimate the majority of American golfers would be classified as being.  I can easily imagine a first-timer not ready for this sort of golf getting frustrated on holes like #2, #9, and #15.  As a result, they may miss the maintenance meld and not really appreciate the playing surfaces, intent of the design, and the wonderful routing and journey the course presents.  At the same time, some of the most knowledgable and traveled GCAer's find fault in Kingsley in places, which is why it is considered polarizing by many and perhaps not the best place to take someone if your goal is conversion...

Last, given that fescue course are not to be considered, I would nominate Pinehurst #2 as a good place to take someone to espouse and experience the virtues of firm and fast for playing condition as well as to the benefits of more environmentally friendly courses, wider playing corridors, playability for any age or stage, etc...

[PCCraig]

Pat, if you don't think it's rare to get 30 yards of roll with consistency on a bentgrass course in the Ohio Valley, then surely you can name a few courses where you can.

I've played on fine fescue all over the country. I know what fast and firm actually looks like. I've lived in two of your bordering states, and I know that bentgrass can be maintained much firmer in the milder summers you get in the Upper Midwest. I've also played hundreds, probably thousands of rounds of golf on bentgrass fairways in the Ohio Valley. My experience tells me you're disappointed a lot if you expect more than 30 yards of roll off the tee on bentgrass around here, but I'm excited for you to give me a few courses to add to my must-play list that will break me of my pessimism and continue to wait for you to share them.

Ben, zoysia is very sticky. I wouldn't call it soft necessarily, and you don't get a lot of mud from it in season as it really forms a very thick mat. But it definitely doesn't play fast unless maintained very tight, and not many clubs do. Even at its fastest, it's still pretty slow.

Jason,

I wasn't pointing out the Ohio Valley, I was speaking in general terms.

I think most courses with fairly close cut fairway turf would lend itself to 30 yards of roll. Or maybe that's just because I hit it over 250 yards with a very low ball flight?

The point I'm trying to make is that I think there is more to F&F than tee shot roll. I see F&F as roll, bounce (do your tee shots bouse 10ft in the air after impact?), and general speed. A course also isn't F&F unless I have to actually play for roll. For example, on the 4th hole of my home course, if I hit driver I need to aim to the right side of the fairway because I know my tee shot is going to bounce and roll hard forward and left.

[Edward Moody]

Tom - yes our tees, fairways, and roughs at the Austin Golf Club are zoysia (bent greens).  The grass can get quite sticky around the greens...mainly during the summer and most noticeably on uphill slopes.  The ground game is tricky during the summer.  But right now the course is set up beautifully as the zoysia is in dormancy.  November thru May are the prime season at AGC.  Doug's favorite saying is "brown is beautiful".  I would certainly categorize AGC as F&F for half the year.  It just gets too damn hot in Texas during the summer and the course plays heavy.

Another bonus during this season is the short course greens (zoysia) are very fun to play.

[JMEvensky]

Tom - yes our tees, fairways, and roughs at the Austin Golf Club are zoysia (bent greens).  The grass can get quite sticky around the greens...mainly during the summer and most noticeably on uphill slopes.  The ground game is tricky during the summer.  But right now the course is set up beautifully as the zoysia is in dormancy.  November thru May are the prime season at AGC.  Doug's favorite saying is "brown is beautiful".  I would certainly categorize AGC as F&F for half the year.  It just gets too damn hot in Texas during the summer and the course plays heavy.

Another bonus during this season is the short course greens (zoysia) are very fun to play.

With zoysia,F & F is a relative term.

In Memphis,most courses with zoysia fairways have some kind of Bermuda for approaches and surrounds.Any idea why this wasn't done at AGC?

More important,as a former Longhorn,who replaces Mack?

[BCowan]

Ari-  Lookout Mount. is a great selection because it doesn't have a sand base and is in a humid area.  The conversation you had with your dad would be the same one I would have with mine.  Is lookout firm in may-aug?  Can't wait to play there.  

Chris- Non Fescue was added to the thread.  I asked people at Kingsley and i thought they said bent grass fairways (not arguing).  Pinehurst is built on sand which helps with the F&F and is a great selection.  Thought it was grand in 98' as it was F&F and the temp was 110 deg.  I think you are right about Kingsley being to radical of a course to take someone new to the idea of F&F.  

I am curious of any F&F in less sand based areas.  Areas of S. Ohio to n. Georgia which are humid, hot, and more clay based.

Mr Doak- In prior posts people have raved about Austin Golf Club Zoysia fairways and it being in F&F condition.  What would you recommend for Ohio Valley/Kentucky area?  Trying to find the mix Randy Thompson uses in Argentina that is successful in warm climate and people down there said it couldn't be done.


  

[Edward Moody]

I'm a Longhorn too - hard times on the farm.  I think Briles would be a great choice!  

[Tim Gavrich]

Old Town was pretty much perfect in terms of firmness when I played it in November.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Chris- Non Fescue was added to the thread.  I asked people at Kingsley and i thought they said bent grass fairways (not arguing).  

Fair enough, I got to this thread late and didn't realize the title had changed...

Yes, Kingsley is fescue from tee to green, but then with bent greens.  I believe, at the time, the team of Mike DeVries, Dan Lucas, and ownership thought that wall-to-wall fescue might be too radical for their prospective membership and therefore opted for fescue fairways and bent greens.  I am sure someone more knowledgable on this subject and history is on this board and could chime in if I am incorrect...

[Andrew Lewis]

The interesting question in this analysis is determining what courses not only play F&F but also have design features that are married to F&F conditioning.

I appreciate this premise.  Firm/fast to me is not just about the ball bouncing high or running out.  It's also the architecture allowing for shot-making to accommodate the conditions -- worrying about how to keep a drive from running into a hazard that in softer conditions would never be in reach, and judging how far short of a green to land one's approach in order to roll near a pin.

The Bandon courses, Kingsley and Ballyneal, all would not only pass Steve Salmen's "is there mud?" test irrespective of weather conditions, but also present architecture that accommodates, if not encourages, running shots and use of kick-boards to carom approach shots close to pins.

Put another way, firm/fast for the sake of firm/fast doesn't make sense; it also needs to connect to the design intent.  (I believe "maintenance meld" is the term favored on this board.)

One inland course that could merit inclusion is Chicago Golf.  It sits inland in an area with plenty of hot/humid weather during summer months.  It plays super-fast and requires, to Sven's point, such conditioning is demanded by the architecture -- with a number of open-fronted and at-grade greens that call for running shots and fairway bunkers that gobble up bounding tee shots.  I can't recall playing a non-fescue course that required so much thought on where to land a ball short of a green in order to hold said green.

The same certainly could be said for Lawsonia although, as with Chicago and other courses in the midwest, the "intent" of firm/fast conditioning can sometimes be undermined by Mother Nature.

[BCowan]

Great post Andrew I agree completely.  Muirfield Village wouldn't play well if it were F&F.  The Arch has to match for F&F.  F&F is basically throwing out the yardage book and playing by feel anticipating run out with drives and approaches short of greens.  Lawsonia looks great and i can't wait to play there.  

[Shane Wright]

Shadow Hills GC in Lubbock, TX is the firmest course I had ever seen or played until playing Portrush during a 3 month drought.  It is nearly as firm as the couple of times I've played Muirfield and TOC.  There isn't a single architectural feature at Shadow Hills that needs to be seen, however, at $11 for students and playing rock hard all the time, it was worth the 50+ times I got to play it in college.   Firm and fast is a common theme in West Texas, quality golf architecture is not.    

The Rawls Course in Lubbock also typically plays very firm and is really good.

  

[Tom_Doak]

One inland course that could merit inclusion is Chicago Golf.  It sits inland in an area with plenty of hot/humid weather during summer months.  It plays super-fast and requires, to Sven's point, such conditioning is demanded by the architecture -- with a number of open-fronted and at-grade greens that call for running shots and fairway bunkers that gobble up bounding tee shots.  I can't recall playing a non-fescue course that required so much thought on where to land a ball short of a green in order to hold said green.

Chicago Golf was super firm and fast in 2012, with Chicago in drought conditions.  They maintained it absolutely at the edge; I've never seen it like that before.  But, they are at the mercy of the weather.  The soils are fairly heavy, and in a wet year, it can become very soft.  One of the first times I played it, twenty years ago, our drives were actually plugging in the fairway.  Maybe they need to spend some money on catch basins  

Or, they could just do what they do, and do their best with what Nature throws at them.  I think that's what's missing in all these discussions of firm and fast ... a bit of common sense.  Firm and fast conditions are great fun, and perhaps the ideal expression for some courses.  But "ideal" and "everyday" are not synonyms.

[Cory Lewis]

The best I saw this year were Old Town and CC of Buffalo, both played amazingly consistent from tee to green.

[Terry Poley]

Andrew,
Great Post! just what I was thinking but written much better

Jason,
Sorry Ohio Valley and Bentgrass is not a good combination for firm and fast, most of the guys there are working their butts off just trying to keep it alive through the heat and humidity of your summer months. Zoysia, as some have already commented, is very "sticky".  I have never played a firm Zoysia surface, The Honors Course, in Ooltewah, is always in great shape… but I would not say firm.

Sven,
The state by state list you posted has two Michigan courses as potential for F&F... The Dunes and Lost Dunes, they may have the design but, (in my opinion) are not even close.

Tom,
You hit the nail on the head.  We get a snapshot in time when we play a course, if its great that day its great always.  If 2012 was the only time you played CGC you may say "its like that every day", I was lucky enough to play there a few years ago and it was very soft so that could be my "reality".  Very few courses can be firm everyday especially through the peak of the golfing season.

[Joe Hancock]

Zoysia may be firm under the right conditions, but I have never seen it anywhere close to being a "fast" surface, it's more like Velcro than pavement.  I know that Doug Petersan thought he could make it perform differently but I don't know if he ever got to where he wanted ... is Austin Golf Club zoysia?

Tom,

I didn't get to play, but went around Austin GC w/ Doug P. It seemed like it was very fast and very firm. I tossed a few balls around and it appeared to be what he wanted it to be. He even had a short game area that he was growing zoysia on the greens at a firm and fast level.

I truly believe that any grass can be firm and fast, but it can't be a flash in the pan moment. The grass has to adapt to that maintenance regime. That's my big gripe w/ tournament venues when they talk about how fast everything is....it gets that way for a brief period of time, one that takes the grass to the edge of death....then every club in America tries to emulate it while keeping the grass green. It's a conflict that has a balance, but most often the error is on the side of green.

Also, I miss these days:



Joe

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