Inferior holes on otherwise highly regarded courses

[Carl Rogers]

Pacific Dunes, given the extraordinary other worldly quality of holes 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8,... there has to be a let down somewhere and  hole number 9 is it. IMO

[Tom_Doak]

Pacific Dunes, given the extraordinary other worldly quality of holes 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8,... there has to be a let down somewhere and  hole number 9 is it. IMO

Proves my earlier point.  I would take that hole to any of my courses.  There is some awkwardness to the tee shot, if you are trying to stay on the high road, but it is a unique hole because of the terrain and I'm quite happy that the hole made really good use of what we had to work with.

[Jim Tang]

While Royal County Down in my favorite course, I've never understood why there is a pond in the middle of the fairway on 17.  That pond seems totally out of place, given the nature of the surrounding land.

[Rob Curtiss]

I agree with all the comments on BD.

Both 9 and 18 are inferior to the rest of the holes.. especially 18, because 16 is soooo good and is still fresh in the mind 2 holes later..

18 on Black Diamond Ranch kills the awesome momentum after playing the quarry holes.

[Thomas Dai]

Firstly, thanks to those who have highlighting the links to other threads where the 16th at Royal Dornoch in particular has been debated.

Secondly, and more generally, a further aspect to consider is were the various holes mentioned on this thread always considered somewhat 'lesser' or 'inferior' holes or has this opinion developed over time with changes in equipment.

For example, this fairway bunker on the 17th at Royal Portrush maybe isn't theses days the hazard it once was off the tee when folk played with older generation clubs and balls.



I know there are historical and routing plan experts herein. Perhaps they may wish to comment on this and as also advise as to whether the various holes mentioned were always as they now appear.

All the best

[Paul Dolton]

I think R D 16th is a good hole. Agree about comments on the trio of holes at Tenby. Played it a while ago and there seemed to be some extra holes at far end of course on interesting land.
Cruden Bay 10th ?
Rye 11th ?

[archie_struthers]

 


Might not have played it enough to postulate such, but how about the 5th at Shinnecock  .  It just didn't appear to match the others for quality or interest !

[BCrosby]

7th at Seminole. A not very interesting hole that feels like it was dropped onto the course by someone with much less imagination that DR.

Bob

[Mark_F]

The longer I've been around, the less these "inferior" holes tend to weigh on my evaluation of a course.  Nearly always, they add to the variety and pacing of the course in question, if nothing else.  

Plus, some of the holes nominated as "inferior" are not inferior at all.  It is the minds of their critics that are inferior.

The real question is, how many great and very good holes does a course have?

Tom,

So what do the 1st and 14th add to Woodlands?  Would you suggest the club try to make those two holes more interesting, or would you leave them?

[Andrew Lewis]

The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me.  I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.

[Patrick_Mucci]

7th at Seminole. A not very interesting hole that feels like it was dropped onto the course by someone with much less imagination that DR.

YIKES

Bob, please tell me that someone has hacked into your computer and is posting under your name.

# 7 is a terrific hole, especially when played into the wind or good cross winds.

There are considerable demands upon the drive and real demands on the second shot.
The sloped and slightly crowned green poses plenty of challenge.

You have to view every hole at Seminole in the context of it's play from every one of 360 degrees.

Each hole changes it's personality and play as the wind shifts, yet, the overall tactical balance remains fairly constant.

The short # 10 might be a good example.
Played with the prevailing wind from the S or SE, it's relatively benign, but into a north wind, it becomes a ferocious adversary.

Recently, in a best ball tournament at Seminole, starting on the 10th tee, with a 1 to 2 club wind from the North , our fellow competitors started off with a best ball of ten (10), and, it could have been worse.  I managed to birdie the hole and felt like we picked up two strokes on the field and that the hole was repaying us for the triple bogey we started off with two years ago.

Each hole at Seminole must be analyzed by how it fits into the puzzle presented by varying winds, and not as a stand alone hole played with wind coming from one direction.

P.S.   Change your password  

Bob

[BCrosby]

Pat -

Aside from the fact that wind makes playing any hole more interesting, I fail to see the appeal of the 7th at Seminole. A drive from an elevated tee to a wide landing area. Then an iron to a large oval green with flanking bunkers. A medium length par 4 that could be found anywhere.

The most remarkable thing about the 7th is the architectural fall-off from the four holes that precede it and the killer par 3 8th that follows it.

Bob  

[Dan Herrmann]

To me, it's like the trail rating system at ski areas.  A black diamond in Western New York could be a blue in Vermont or even a green on a world-class area in Utah.  In other words, ski trail ratings are relative to other trails at that facility.

The worst hole at Pine Valley would be better than the best hole at 95% of the world's courses, no?

[Tim Martin]

The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me.  I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.

A centerline bunker between 50 and 100 yards from the green could go a long way in ramping up the intrigue of 16 at Yale. It would certainly put more thought into the second shot for those that are thinking about taking a crack at the green in two. This hole has some really cool landforms on the right side of the drive zone for the longer hitters asking for a draw shaped shot to grab a turbo boost off of the mounding. Scott a Ramsay has reclaimed quite a bit of green that had receded over the years and there are some really interesting putts available depending on where it is pinned.

[Tim Bert]

The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me.  I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.

Wrong, Lewis. 16 isn't deserving of anything.

[Tom_Doak]

The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me.  I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.

A centerline bunker between 50 and 100 yards from the green could go a long way in ramping up the intrigue of 16 at Yale.

Well, except that would make it just like #17, with the Principal's Nose a bit in front of the green.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yale 16 is a great example of Wethered & Simpson's point. It's a needed breather before two brutes. And while 17 is less of a brute due to modern equipment (but a 4 still is hard earned), modern equipment has turned 16 into a reachable par 5. As Tim notes, Ramsay's expansion of the green has given support to reachability (and increased the probability of 3-putts   ).

And why does reachable matter? Because of 17 and 18. Our breather hole gives us the "opportunity" to think about 17 & 18 while we're playing it, changing not only the quality of our play on 16, potentially, but the strategy we take. Nature abhors a vacuum and golfers fill pauses with...thoughts.

All this said, I'd be in favor of restoring the original green, just because I'd like to see it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat -

Aside from the fact that wind makes playing any hole more interesting, I fail to see the appeal of the 7th at Seminole.

A drive from an elevated tee to a wide landing area.

What about the cross bunkers you have to carry ?

Then an iron to a large oval green with flanking bunkers.

After a good drive, I hit a rock solid 3-wood and cleared the water by 3 feet,
I deliberately aimed at the right side, knowing it was the shorter carry.
Had I aimed at the green or pulled my shot, I would have been in the water.
Then, I chipped up and missed my putt.

The day before I hit my drive too high and the wind ate it up.  So, I had to lay up, short of the water, then hit a solid iron into the green.

The green isn't an oval, it's elongated.

What you also fail to see is how the hole serves to transition the golfer from the upper dune, down to the flat body of the property.
Not dissimilar from the 2nd hole at Friars Head.
# 12 functions in a similar fashion and certainly, # 12's fairway and rough are far wider than # 7's.

A medium length par 4 that could be found anywhere.

When I have to hit a drive and 3-wood, and not get home, I don't consider that a medium length hole.
As to finding it anywhere, I don't know of many holes that could transition the golfer better.
One also has to consider the use of the system of center ponds that drain the property and how they are incorporated into various holes, like the 7th.

The most remarkable thing about the 7th is the architectural fall-off from the four holes that precede it and the killer par 3 8th that follows it.

#8 is certainly a hard hole.  Is it a great hole ?
When you analyze the individual holes at Seminole I think you have to give consideration to their function.
Some transition the golfer from the flat body of the golf course, up to the top of the dunes and others, like # 7 perform the opposite function.

Maybe you've played it when a West wind has been blowing, then, it's far more benign

I'm surprised you didn't pick # 1 or # 14

 

[Ronald Montesano]

You have to remember that the 18th hole, designed in the era of "match" play, was often an irrelevant hole, since most matches had been concluded by # 18, therefore, on the courses built by the ODG's you can't employ a medal plan mentality when evaluating the 18th hole.

I've read this countless times and the more it crosses my vision, the more unreliable it becomes. Were ODGs using metrics to determine that matches ended on the 17th more often than the 18th? Why not the 16th or the 15th?

Since a match could end anywhere, but most likely between 10 and 18, I don't buy this "match play" mentality for designing a golf course.

If it weren't for the Valley of Sin, the 18th at TOC would have little merit.

[Tim Martin]

The mentions of 18 at Yale surprises me.  I recognize that it can be polarizing (I happen to love it), but 16 is the hole on that course truly deserving of criticism.

A centerline bunker between 50 and 100 yards from the green could go a long way in ramping up the intrigue of 16 at Yale.

Well, except that would make it just like #17, with the Principal's Nose a bit in front of the green.

Tom-I don't buy that argument as 17 is a par 4 and 16 is a par 5. Additionally you have room right of the Principal's Nose as a playing corridor which you wouldn't have on 16.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think the first question that has to be answered is:  What makes the hole inferior ?

And the second question:  WHEN did it become inferior ?

And the third question:  Did it become inferior due to increased distance due to modern technology ?

Archie, # 5 at Shinnecock might be easy with the prevailing wind, but, it sure changes it's personality and difficulty when the wind shifts, especially into a North wind.