Triangles & Clockwise and Counter Clockwise loops were

[Patrick_Mucci]

used in routing to create a balance or offset with the WIND with many of the ODG's.

But, what about a site with only one prevailing wind, maybe two.

How does one rout a course to avoid monotony under that circumstance ?

I often think of Shinnecock and NGLA, two distinctly different routing patterns in windy environment.

Shinnecock seemed to rout the course whereby the shorter holes played into the wind and the longer holes, downwind.

NGLA is significantly different with it's out and back routing.

My limited experience at NGLA leads me to believe that there's usually not much in the way of a wind in the morning, and that as the day goes by, the prevailing wind/s picks up, making the more difficult back nine, easier to play.

So, dismissing or discounting topography for a second,  if there was a pronounced prevailing wind, is the method of having the short holes play into the wind, the hard holes with the wind, the way to go, or, are there other ways to rout a golf course when a site is buffeted by a pronounced prevailing wind ?

[JESII]

Not sure how it fits into your question, but when the opposite wind blows at Shinnecock the course is incredibly difficult...several strokes I would say.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

It hasn't happened to me often, but, when it does, the difference in play is considerable.

# 11 and # 12 into the wind are almost overwhelming.

[Bill_McBride]

One of the axioms of routing is to have the four short holes box the compass for variety.  If that is followed only one would play into the prevailing wind. 

[Tom_Doak]

Barnbougle Dunes is a very windy site, with one prevailing wind that is so strong that the dunes and valleys formed along it.  Nearly all the holes play either into the wind or downwind, because the width of the sandy ground is really not wide enough to have much more than a par-3 hole playing crosswind.

Lost Farm, just across the way, has some wide-open plains where Bill Coore was able to route the holes on different angles to include crosswind holes.  In theory, this is more ideal, but in practice, I wonder if it really is?  The winds are so strong down there that the crosswind holes are almost impossible on gusty days, resulting in lots of lost balls.  By contrast, playing into the wind, you have a bit more chance to keep control of your ball, even if it's not going that far.

Personally, I think this is one of those things the "experts" have got wrong.  Just because something sounds ideal on paper, does not mean it works best that way on the ground.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride
Quote:
One of the axioms of routing is to have the four short holes box the compass for variety.  If that is followed only one would play into the prevailing wind. 

Bill,

Not sure I understand the configuration of the holes, especially as they relate to the other 14 holes.

Or, are you indicating that throughout the routing that you try to design short holes aligned with the four points of the compass.

What about the par 3's and par 5's ?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride
Quote:
One of the axioms of routing is to have the four short holes box the compass for variety.  If that is followed only one would play into the prevailing wind. 

Bill,

Not sure I understand the configuration of the holes, especially as they relate to the other 14 holes.

Or, are you indicating that throughout the routing that you try to design short holes aligned with the four points of the compass.

What about the par 3's and par 5's ?

Patrick, the reference is to the par 3s only, with an "ideal" situation one running east, one west, one north, one south.  

That way you won't have several of them down wind or into the wind.  

I agree with Tom Doak that this may not be ideal in every case.  And it's an axiom, a suggestion, not a rule.  

[Jason Topp]

Kapalua Plantation is a good example where the prevailing wind is also downhill which must be pretty unusual.

[Niall C]

Barnbougle Dunes is a very windy site, with one prevailing wind that is so strong that the dunes and valleys formed along it.  Nearly all the holes play either into the wind or downwind, because the width of the sandy ground is really not wide enough to have much more than a par-3 hole playing crosswind.

Lost Farm, just across the way, has some wide-open plains where Bill Coore was able to route the holes on different angles to include crosswind holes.  In theory, this is more ideal, but in practice, I wonder if it really is?  The winds are so strong down there that the crosswind holes are almost impossible on gusty days, resulting in lots of lost balls.  By contrast, playing into the wind, you have a bit more chance to keep control of your ball, even if it's not going that far.

Personally, I think this is one of those things the "experts" have got wrong.  Just because something sounds ideal on paper, does not mean it works best that way on the ground.

Tom

That's a very interesting take on routing for wind. My experience of windy sites is almost exclusively in the UK and I think it's fair to say that a prevailing wind in this country really means a wind that blows in a general direction for most of the time. It doesn't mean a specific direction all of the time. It's not uncommon to experience a complete shift in wind direction on a UK links course particularly if you're playing around noon with the change in the tides. Even slight change in direction can make a big difference in a fast running links. For those reasons I've always tended to be sceptical when listening to others judge a course on whether the holes run in similar directions.

As an aside when I was looking over the new holes at Renaissance last year with Simon, I asked him about the prevailing wind and how often it blew that way and his response was 60% of the time.

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

That's a very interesting take on routing for wind. My experience of windy sites is almost exclusively in the UK and I think it's fair to say that a prevailing wind in this country really means a wind that blows in a general direction for most of the time. It doesn't mean a specific direction all of the time. It's not uncommon to experience a complete shift in wind direction on a UK links course particularly if you're playing around noon with the change in the tides. Even slight change in direction can make a big difference in a fast running links. For those reasons I've always tended to be sceptical when listening to others judge a course on whether the holes run in similar directions.

As an aside when I was looking over the new holes at Renaissance last year with Simon, I asked him about the prevailing wind and how often it blew that way and his response was 60% of the time.

Niall

Niall:

I understand that some sites are different than others.

In the case of Bandon and Barnbougle, there are two prevailing winds, but they are almost 180 degrees opposite of each other.  In Bandon it blows out of the north almost every day in summer, and turns around to come from the SSW most of the winter.  At Barnbougle, the primary wind is from the west, but about 10-15% of the time it comes from the east.  On neither course have I ever seen the wind come straight off the water in all the times I've been on site.  At Bandon, once, it blew strongly out to sea for about two hours -- that was weird.

In those circumstances I think my approach made sense.

In general, I agree that thinking too much about one prevailing wind is a bad idea, because when the wind blows opposite, the whole design is messed up.  We have short par-4's and par-5's playing in opposite directions on both courses, for that reason.  But, as Mr. Keiser told me when I asked about the wind, in Bandon the people paying top dollar in summer are going to see the wind from the north nearly every day, so having a lot of long holes playing straight north would not be that popular.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, all sites are different. And, I have always said I trust the wind to blow a certain direction about as much as I would trust a Riverboat Gambler, or to update that, maybe a Nigerian Prince offering to put millions in my bank account......

Here in TX, we have the 180 degree wind shift problem, but more folks still play in summer than winter, and typically we design for summer breezes.  Actually, here when its warm in winter, wind usually comes off the gulf, and when its cold, its clear and wind comes from Oklahoma.  And, its strong enough in any season here that we also typically favor N-S holes both for sun and wind.  Into or downwind is always more playable than cross winds.  On public courses, I favor as many up and downwind holes as possible, and fewer cross wind holes.

The other design theory is to try to get close to 2/3 playing well in the prevailing wind, and 1/3 (approximately, of course, depending on land) playing in the secondary wind.  Sure, there are days when the course sucks to play, but there isn't really any other way to handle it.

And, as TD says, when you get working all but the flattest of sites, sometimes you can work a routing that accomplishes the "all points of wind compass stuff" but more often than not, one favoring the land forms and letting the wind blow where it may is a stronger routing.

I was interested to here a few comments on the Yank thread about D Pascuzzo's Monarch dunes, where a poster noted that the holes most affected by wind were narrowest. While I would consider that in feature design where I could, it is really hard to think about all the various factors that might affect a hole at the routing phase.  But, at least you have the peace of mind to know you have feature design to mollify the wind somewhat.