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Rob Curtiss

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Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« on: December 23, 2013, 03:26:04 PM »
Jack Nicklaus

I have played 10 or so jack Nicklaus courses and seem to struggle everytime.
Scores not always so bad, but it seems like at the end of a round I had to have the perfect shot every time.  Tons of shots that have to fly over stuff..no let up..greens without a bail out

Love the look of his courses- and want to play more of them.
But Mayacoo lakes , Old Corkscrew, The bears Club and many others have had my number.
Loved Mayacama though..
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 06:32:12 PM by RCurtiss »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 04:11:19 PM »
It’s Nicklaus for me too. As a guy who tries very hard to play a low draw, it’s hard to play courses that favor high cuts. Nicklaus courses, true to their reputation, make me feel like I need to play fades all day.

I don’t necessarily find that he doesn’t offer bailouts. The Nicklaus courses I’ve played generally have a safe spot to miss on most holes. The problem is that the shots just look manageable to me, so I tend to ignore the bailout and try to hit to Position A. I find a certain comfort in the way he lays out a hole visually that makes it clear what shot I should be trying to hit. The result is that a lot of shots “fit my eye” even if they don’t fit my swing, and so I may picture the shot very clearly but still fail to execute it even if just slightly. I’ve never thought about this before now, but it seems like a lot of architects rely on visual intimidation while Jack relies more on visual comfort that belies how dangerous a lot of the shots on his courses really are.

I don’t know if anyone punishes missed shots harder than Jack, and hitting toward Position A all day attempting shots with quietly high degrees of difficulty can spell disaster.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 04:26:19 PM »
Pete Dye. It's the visual intimidation because I'm a mental midget.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 04:34:54 PM »
Love the look of his courses- and want to play more of them.
But Mayacoo lakes , Old Corkscrew, The bears Club and many others have had my number.
Loved Mayacama though..

RCurtiss:  I have yet to play Mayacama, but have been told by many others that it's quite difficult, with a lot of forced carries into the greens.  Just curious why you singled it out as an exception?  Did you just like the setting more?  Did you play better there, and not notice the difficulty?

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 04:41:28 PM »
Definitely Pete Dye for me too.  I haven't played some of his best work like The Golf Club or the Honors Course, but I've played 10 of his courses including Sawgrass, Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Harbour Town and Pete Dye GC.  Just something about them that doesn't fit my eye

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 04:45:24 PM »
Mayacama does indeed have many, many forced carries. As best I can recall, there are red and/or yellow stakes in play on just about every hole.

Much of that is certainly attributable to the setting of the course. It would be interesting to see what another GCA could have done to mitigate the many creek beds, barrancas, wetlands, etc. on that property.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 04:58:13 PM by David_Tepper »

Rob Curtiss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 05:53:26 PM »
Hey Tom,

I Live in Florida, and all the flyovers down here are over water..very intimidating to me personally.
I actually played in a tournament at a Nicklaus course where a par 3 was over water and there was no drop zone. A player in my group tried 3 times and finally walked off the courses. Not sure if that was Nicklaus's doing or the courses, but you could see the frustration.
I think his courses are very appealing to the eye if I was taking a picture, but they get into my head sometimes.
Although Mayacama is much more visually appealing to me, I did not think it felt as tight as the courses that Jack has done down here.

I am playing Dismal in the 5th Major and cant wait to see that.
Even if it has a lot of forced carries, over land,I might still get a chance at hitting the ball again.



Rob Curtiss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 06:03:59 PM »
I also wanted to say that I am extremely intrigued to play Both your course and Jacks at Dismal.
To compare the different styles. You can make a hard course (which I love to play ) and not have all flyovers to the greens or off the tee box.

Pacific Dunes was rated as one of the top 75 hardest courses by Golf Digest and I thought it was tough but very playable if you hit the right shot.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 06:05:35 PM by RCurtiss »

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 03:03:33 PM »
Fazio

Don't know why, but he seems to get me. It's rather aggravating. I think I've only had one good round on his course at Oak Creek, but very few otherwise.

I'm indifferent on his courses and have not seen what people call his best. The only one of true recognition I've played of his is Pelican Hill, but I was much younger and didn't have as good of an idea of what I was looking at.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2013, 03:20:29 PM »
I think it's safe to say that an architect's style may not fit a particular golfer's eye or game.

And, that an architect's style/design/construction may not be the style that a golfer feels comfortable with, visually or viscerally and that translates into how they play and perceive the course.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2013, 04:40:31 PM »
Brian Sheehy,

You wrote:

Pat Ruddy.

But I wouldn't say I struggle with them - I just identify them as repetitive and kind of missing the point of having firm, sandy soil at one's disposal. Oh don't get me wrong, he'll produce something visually attractive. But he does not seem to possess the ability all great architects have in common:  to just let great land alone.

Oh, and Pat: please don't ring my office this time berating me for defaming you. Learn to have a thicker skin and take criticism like a man.


Who is Pat Ruddy ?

And why would anyone call you ?

And, don't try to delete your post, I've preserved it for everyone  ;D

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2013, 05:06:43 PM »
Every time that I feel I don't like certain designers I find a course that I like.  So my answer is no. However, I have seen so many renovations that I dislike, not only the terrible work done at Bay Hill and Doral (although both may be closer to playable now), but also toDukes, Jubilee and Eden as well as Rosedale and Summit.  The Banff Springs course is still wonderful, as long as you can sneak on to start on the original first hole!
Merry Christmas to all, may the course be with you in 2014!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2013, 10:15:46 PM »
Nicklaus for me.  Way too hard for the 12 + handicap on several I have played.  Not fun for the lower handicap per se either.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2013, 10:32:41 PM »


Brian,

Now I get it, I was confusing your comment about phone calls and taking criticism like a man with another thread.

My mistake.

Mark down the date ;D

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« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 11:06:29 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2013, 08:57:19 AM »
"Who is Pat Ruddy ?"

Pat M. -

In case you really want to learn about Pat Ruddy:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pat+ruddy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

DT

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2013, 09:21:43 AM »
Rees Jones, nice man, don't get what he does to golf courses.

Pete Dye decoded are great!!!!!!!!!!!  Just have to learn him.  


The punitive style in general hurts me , hard for hards ' sake , yech.....

That could include a Lot of Nicklaus but his doesn't bother me.

PS  love Pat Ruddy!!!!!!!!

Bill Buthorn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2013, 05:59:13 PM »
Interesting question.  If I single one our two out, that might seem to indicate that there are those I do not struggle with, indicating a level of mastery not attained!  So the short answer to the question is:  All of Them.  Perhaps some more than others, but for me it is a hole by hole question, more than a course by course.  I have never played a round where struggle did not rear its ugly head.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2013, 06:28:09 PM »
I have trouble with Greg Norman's courses.  Have never played them well.

I don't really want to begin a Pat Ruddy thread, but I really enjoy his courses.  I absolutely love The European Club and Ballyliffen.  They are fun and require a lot of different shot skills.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2013, 09:10:55 PM »
Brauer....

I have a fair amount of experience on his courses because there are four fairly close to my home in Topeka.  Two within 30 miles, one about 50 and one about 150 or so.

I have trouble with all of them.  Every one of them has holes that make wonder howinhell a middle handicapper is supposed to negotiate them.

I have some theories why I don't like them, but because Jeff is such a good guy and participant here I don't figure it's worth making a big deal of.

Colbert Hills at KSU was built to be a test for college golfers so I understand why it's so damned hard.

Firekeeper is a "resort" course where you'd think it would be beneficial to make people want to come back after having a fun round without losing too many balls and with a decent score. But it's a brute for most of the guys I play with.

Sand Creek Station I've only played once, so the fact that I played like crap probably needs to be taken into account.

Finally, Eagle Bend is the muni in Lawrence, which I've played quite a few times.  It just asks some questions that I find unreasonable.  I have finally gotten to where I can get around it, but it's far from a favorite.

I hope to get up to northern Minn. to play Giants Ridge.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2013, 09:38:06 PM »
Alister Mackenzie.  I can never seem to even GET ON any of his courses!
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2013, 09:44:53 PM »
Nasty Nicklaus couses - which are not all of them.

From a limited sample - Maxwell. I cant make enough putts to offset the rest of my game. 

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2013, 11:07:18 PM »
Not really. I struggle with myself. If a guy has the presence of mind to  ignore the danger and hit the ball straight, he should at least stay out of trouble  on any course. It's psychological.

Problem is, the 'gift of straight' was bequeathed by an indian giver.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 11:09:10 PM by Wayne_Freedman »

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2013, 12:31:56 AM »
I struggled on the Nicklaus courses I played (Muirfield Village, both PGA West,Bear Creek,Sherwood, Glen Abbey...no recent ones)
I played RTJ jr courses terribly.

I almost always play MacKenzie courses well.
Pete Dye courses always brought out some good golf.
Brian Curley's courses seem to fit my eyes as well.

Donald Ross courses seem a good fit.
Played Forsgate and Whippoorwhil well.  Both Banks??  Cannot remember.

I have yet to play a Doak course, but the looks of them would likely fit, same with Gil.

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2013, 02:43:18 PM »
Arthur Hills. I've (fortunately) only played a few of his courses and disliked them all as his style seems to tend towards penal--cause or effect?

On the other hand, my left to right ball flight makes Nicklaus courses manageable.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Is there a course designer that you struggle with his courses
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2013, 07:31:24 PM »
Faldo courses or anything he was involved with, like a kiss of death.

Had a few pints with Mister Ruddy, nice man and good courses..
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

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