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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« on: August 09, 2003, 02:46:38 PM »
Standing on the 1st tee, the golfer can see a sliver of fairway in the direction of the flag but for ~ 1/2 of the hole locations, the ideal drive is well right of there to an area of fairway hidden behind the fescue covered mounds that slash into the right middle of the expansive fairway.

At the one shot 2nd, the golfer has an unobstructed view of the single most fearsome hazard on the course - the 12 foot pit that fronts the green.

At the 3rd, the golfer can see the white flag in the distance on this straight hole but none of the fairway (which happens to be one of widest on the course) when the fescue rough is up.

The 5th hole, which has been modified several times, is one of the few instances where the golfer has a clear view down the length of the hole. Coincidentally, it is my least favorite two shotter on the course. Still, ala the 11th or 12th at Pine Valley, almost any course would like to have it.

Though the 7th is in the middle of Hempstead Plain, the wide fairway isn't in view thanks to the tee being built up NOT one inch from its surrounds and the fescue rough separating the tee and fairway.

The 8th tee aims the golfer down the very left edge of the fairway, which is both visible and the long way home. The golfer has to be mighty confident to flight his ball over the tallish brush that obscures the view of the right portion of the fairway.

The golfer is given a clear view of the 9th fairway. He is also given a clear view of the flag which is well right of the fairway. Thus, many a player is lured into aiming too far right. As the fairway is domed on the right, a marginal shot along the right fairway edge is shrugged off into fescue covered mounds.

The view down the 10th is blind save for the GCGC trademark flagsticks signifying the right edge of the fairway bunkers down the left.

On two of the very toughest two shotters, the golfer has a good view down the fairway. In the case of the 11th, he can see how the diagonal bunkers pinch in the fairway and make his decision accordingly. At the 15th, he can see the cross hazard bisecting the fairway some 280 yards off the tee.

At the three shot 13th, the golfer is given a good view of GCGC equivalent of a Hell bunker complex: the golfer on the tee understands if he doesn't hit the fairway, clearing these bunkers on his second will be problematic.

At the 16th, patches of the left side of the fairway can be seen but the right of the fairway is obscured by the fescue. Ala The Old Course, the golfer again has to be full of confidence to swing out down the right side as OB is near there, as is the perfect line into the green.

Off the reachable 490 yard 17th, the golfer is again kept guessing. Though he would like to blast away off the tee in an effort to bring the green within reach in two, there is no comforting view of the fairway. In fact just the opposite - wonder if that slight tug off the tee just sent the ball into a hidden row of six foot deep pits a few paces off the left of the fairway? The golfer (and his competitor) will have to walk ahead at least 200 yards before learning his tee ball's fate.

And finally at the one shot Home hole, the golfer has a perfect view of everything: Lake Cornelia, the amphitheatre formed by the clubhouse and patio, the huge green itself and the shared practice putting green, the menacing deep bunker in front, etc.

All in all, I can't think of any course in the US that offers any more appealing variety of views off the tee. The architects continually mix up what the golfer can/can't see. A large stylish bunker is NEVER available in the distance as an aiming point. As Max Behr preferred, the bunkers are pits sunk into the ground.

The Old Course at St. Andrews, Royal County Down and Royal St. George's are three great favorites overseas that also keep the golfer slightly 'off balance' off the tee. RCD and RSG do it through their wild topography while the flatter Garden City and TOC accomplish the same result through many subtle means. (I started a thread 15-18 months ago suggesting that the design of Garden City best embraces the lessons learned from the The Old Course and I stand by that view).

Too bad many courses built after WWII offer such perfect views down the lengths of the holes with everything nicely laid out for the golfer to see. Especially given the unchecked direction of technology, such courses give the Johnny Miller green light special to ace golfers to bomb away and the architect is in a tough position after a relaxed monster 350 yard drive.

Though many prefer perfect visuals off the tee and even consider it a more strategic form of architecture as the golfer can clearly make out what he should/shouldn't do, I for one find it boring and think such architects have missed one of the easiest ways to get inside the golfer's head. In order for a course to stay fresh for its members round after round and year after year, it seems to me that it MUST create indecision (no matter how slight) and make the golfer pause off the tee. And very few courses do it better than Garden City Golf Club.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: August 09, 2003, 02:54:28 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2003, 02:57:15 PM »
Ran, Nice detailed report and thoughtful opinions in closing thoughts.  

For those who have not seen or played it...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/garden1.html
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Matt_Ward

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2003, 03:06:28 PM »
Ran:

Be most interested to know how the turf conditions were -- the last time I played GCGC (about two years ago) the course was especially wet and the H20 didn't come from the sky.

The trademark of GCGC is when it's near concrete like conditions -- the then makes for entertaining golf.

Last time I played tee shots were plugging in their own marks and balls could be stopped on the greens without much effort.

Interested in any comments you can offer although I am well aware of the rain situation the Northeast has endured this year and in most recent days.

P.S. Jeff Sernick says he enjoyed your time together at The Creek!

Jim_Bick

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2003, 05:59:52 PM »
Relative to unsettling views from the tee, I just returned from Whistling Straits. The 2004 PGA tee locations were staked. While I didn't stand on everyone, it seemed that a large majority were back and below the closer tees, showing the player none (or almost none) of the fairway. The par-3 17th showed almost none of the green surface.  This was in addition to lengths in the upper 400's consistently. There were plenty of bunkers to use as aiming points though.

I think it will be interesting to watch.

TEPaul

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2003, 07:46:23 PM »
Ran:

I like that visual analysis from GCCC's tees very much and I couldn't agree with you more about keeping the golfer a bit off balance by going  a bit light on visibility off the tee in spots. That however breaks bigtime with this modern dictate that "everything should be right in front of you". I do remember that time with you there at GCCC--think it's when I first met you--and how much you remarked that most of GCCC's tees are basically flat on grade which is quite unusual. I've asked about ten times now and no one has answered me but with so many tees right on grade I'd like to know why that right side tee on #14 is so built up--it looks odd in that flat on grade tee style at GCCC.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2003, 10:18:57 PM »
Ran,

# 4 is also blind with a view of long grass unfolding before you.
You may recall that I suggested driving between the smokestack and Flag in the distance.

# 14 is also blind in the immediate view with that rolling ridge blocking the start of the fairway all the way past the deep right side fairway bunker.
I usually reference a distant opening in the tall grass as an aiming point.

I also like that the first 2/3 of the 2nd green is invisible, as is the 6th green, 9th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 15th, and the first 1/3 of the 16th green.

The golf course is certainly built low to the ground.
But, I think this is possible because of the soil conditions found on the Hempstead Plain, and the drainage that goes with it.

TEPaul,

There is a ground level tee left of the elevated tee on # 14.
I like the elevated tee as it provides contrast and an unusual feature to the approach.  There is a hole in either Scotland, Ireland or both that has a similar look with respect to the tee next to the prior green.

Matt Ward,

Have you not looked out your window for the past five months.  If it's not green, it's concrete, and even the concrete looks green with algae and moss growing on it.

The course is generally playing firmer, as is NGLA.


T_MacWood

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2003, 10:22:53 PM »
Why did Horace Hutchinson and Bernard Darwin both feel GCGC was dull?

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2003, 10:09:00 AM »
It seems that Tom Simpson in The Architectural Side of Golf agrees:

“Another essential is good visibility.  In certain cases we regard blind shots as admissible; still on the whole we prefer a course each hole of which presents a problem which needs to be thought out with thoroughness in the manner of attack; and blindness is injurious to the right presentation of such problems.  All the pros and cons of this or that method of arriving at a solution must, under the conditions of this enquiry, be carefully weighed in the balance.

It must be, in fact, a course that from start to finish stimulates thought and provides mental excitement.  For this reason, if for no other, it must be a course not too exacting for everyday purposes. The type of hole that is seen at a glance makes little appeal.  We demand the occasion when if becomes necessary to enquire into the meaning and possible the indirect intention of the designer in order to discover whether he has a purpose he is trying to conceal.  If he has, then it is our business to discover the solution.”

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2003, 10:55:14 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I don't know, but I'll be seeing them later today and I'll ask them.

The real question is, why did their girl friends and wives feel that they were dull ?  ;D

Tim Liddy,

The "blind" that Ran references isn't total, and perhaps that's responsible for the intrique.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2003, 11:04:19 AM »
The notion of doubt created by the topography combined with visual uncertainty seems most exhilarating, to me. And to have it all but on one hole seems too good to be true. The tee shots on 8 at CPC and PB, springs to mind, as well as the first at Spy. A steady diet of uncertainty is a good thing, not only testing ones Karma but speculative powers too.

TEPaul

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2003, 11:47:24 AM »
Tom MacW:

Perhaps Darwin and Hutchinson's remarks about GCGC had something to do with feelings toward Travis as can be seen by the on-going problems Travis had with the Europeans. Travis was also one of the two that Macdonald picked to originally help him with NGLA but later got rid of Travis. Macdonald was a close friend and great admirer of Hutchinson particularly on the spirit of the game and the rules. Macdonald was one of two originally picked to set up the rules of the game for the USGA and he took most of his advice on that from Hutchinson. Travis also had on-going amateur status problems with the USGA and Macdonald was a severe purist on the issue of amateur status. According to Geo Bahto Macdonald was also very competitive about comparisons to NGLA and maybe he suggested to Hutchinson and Darwin to say something lukewarm about GCGC!

Matt_Ward

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2003, 01:04:06 PM »
Pat:

My reference wasn't to the weather we've been having now in the Northeast but the lack of "concrete" conditions I have seen in the recent times I have played the course.

Is the concern moving more towards how the course "looks" rather how it "plays." I'm not there everyday so maybe you might be able to illuminate that for me and others. Thanks!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2003, 03:28:51 PM »
Matt Ward,

I was kidding you and forgot the  ;D

The concern is for playability, but the weather has hampered those efforts this season.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2003, 04:31:06 PM »
Ran,

Interesting take on the golf course.  We think a lot about hiding the mowing lines, although we seldom go to the extreme of making the tee shot semi-blind.

At Garden City the third tee was built up 30-40 years ago, and with some effort, I managed to convince them to put it back on the ground about four years ago.  

The fifth hole was originally 300 yards, with the green tucked to the left into the mounding so you could see only half of it from the tee; they played this for a while when we rebuilt the present green, but I could not convince them to move back to the original location.  (I've never yet consulted on a course which wanted to give up length on a hole.)

And those two hidden pits left of the 17th fairway are my idea.  Travis didn't have a fairway bunker more than 220 yards off any tee.


T_MacWood

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2003, 05:17:38 PM »
TE
I haven't seen any evidence of Darwin and Hutchinson having a dislike for Travis. I'm sure there were a number of Brits who didn't care for him, but there were plenty of American's who disliked him too. And I don't believe Darwin's realationship with the Old Man would have made any difference, it never stopped him from criticizing the work of architects who were his friends (he also wrote a very glowing column following Travis's death). From what I understand Hutchinson was noted for his grace after loosing to Travis at Sandwich and gave him all the credit from winning the Am. In fact the British press was very kind to Travis following his victory.

GCGC proceeded the National and the NGLA dominated all discussions regarding the best courses. If anyone would have been upset it would have been Travis, in fact he wrote a fairly critical article on the NGLA. The British writer Henry Leach, one Travis's best friends, was also cool about GCGC.

TEPaul

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2003, 06:15:58 PM »
Tom MacW:

Well then I can't imagine why Hutchinson and Darwin were critical of GCGC---calling it dull. Perhaps there's something written somewhere explaining exactly why they felt that. Maybe they just didn't like low profile golf courses.

T_MacWood

Re:Garden City GC: perfect off the tee
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2003, 10:29:05 PM »
I get the impression they were not thrilled with the low profile site. They both made similar tours--many golfing visitors hit the same spots--Brookline, Essex County, Myopia, Shinnecock and NGLA (Leach also made it up to Ekwanock, which I believe was his favorite American course, he regularly vacationed there with his friend Travis). In comparision the sites for these courses are much more dramatic. And naturally they were also comparing GCGC to the premier heathland courses which were on much more undulating land.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2003, 10:34:08 PM by Tom MacWood »