[Kevin Lynch]

It was already mentioned in the thread, but 13 on Bethpage Red is an example of a hole with a split fairway that really does have two options.  

If you go right (which is the easier tee shot), you have to carry a bunker on approach shot to a very shallow green.  If you go long, it is a tricky pitch/chip given the contours of the green.

If you go left, the green really opens up for you and it is a much, much easier shot.  You don't have to come up over the bunker so coming up short is not a bad play and the green is much deeper when you come at it from the left.  But the tee shot down the left is much tighter and if you miss right (which most golfers at Bethpage do) then you are in some very penal bunkers.

I usually end up wishing I tried the other option but that may say more about the current state of my game than anything else.

This is one of my favorite holes to discuss. Me and Michael Felton were debating it last month in a thread that got wiped out. My contention was that for most players the right side tee shot isn't as safe as the left side is rewarding. It's not to say that certain players, based on their shot tendencies and misses, shouldn't always choose the right side. It's more that the right has dangers that neutralize some of its benefits of safety. So to your point above, while left is clearly the easier approach, I wasn't totally convinced that the right is clearly the easier drive. Good fun.

There is also some visual trickery on the tee that makes the right appear to be the easier play. But if you look at the aerial below, you'll see it's not so cut and dry. The fairway on the right side requires quite a bit of precision to be hit. While the widest stretch of fairway landing zone on the entire hole is actually on the left side, extending up to 255 from the tee and leaving only 135-140 (and a perfect angle) to the center of the green.

That all said, if you're a bomber who can carry the right side corner of the hazard (about 265 from the back tees), fairway or no, you're likely down there far enough to make much of this null. I don't have that ability as I drive it rather low, so it's left for me always.



It's also an interesting hole in that:

The longer you hit it down the LEFT side, the more the fairway narrows.
The longer you hit it down the RIGHT, the more it widens.

LEFT has trouble on both sides of the drive and approach, requiring straighter shots.
RIGHT has trouble that needs to be carried on both drive and approach, requiring higher shots.

Obviously, I'm quite fascinated by this hole.

Mark -

Discussion of this particular hole arose during a "Favorite Centerline Bunker" thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53386.msg1226949.html#msg1226949

Like you, I always thought the trade-offs on this hole were a little skewed and awkward.  In the other thread, I looked up the historical imagery of the hole, and discovered that the right fairway did not exist through 1980.  Thus, I think the reason this hole is awkward is the fact that the hazard was never intended to be centerline.

Of course, just because it wasn't intended, doesn't mean the current hole isn't fascinating to discuss.

[Mark Fedeli]

Mark -

Discussion of this particular hole arose during a "Favorite Centerline Bunker" thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53386.msg1226949.html#msg1226949

Like you, I always thought the trade-offs on this hole were a little skewed and awkward.  In the other thread, I looked up the historical imagery of the hole, and discovered that the right fairway did not exist through 1980.  Thus, I think the reason this hole is awkward is the fact that the hazard was never intended to be centerline.

Of course, just because it wasn't intended, doesn't mean the current hole isn't fascinating to discuss.

thanks for linking to the older thread. you made some good points in there.

i agree about the awkwardness coming from the fact that the right fairway was added later on. i don't have them in front of me but from what i remember of the older aerials, the hazard bisected the fairway diagonally right to left and was not intended to be carried, but to narrow the fairway the further down you went.

i've drawn the old fairways below, does that look about right? i've also drawn where i think the original tee box was: further back and closer to #12 green (so the hole played even more blindly coming over the mounding and raised bunker complex on the left). the tee box in use now was the old forward tee.

looks like a much better hole back then, no?

[Kevin Lynch]

i've drawn the old fairways below, does that look about right? i've also drawn where i think the original tee box was: further back and closer to #12 green (so the hole played even more blindly coming over the mounding and raised bunker complex on the left). the tee box in use now was the old forward tee.

looks like a much better hole back then, no?

Mark,

I never really thought of the area above the bunker to be considered fairway in the older aerials, but sometimes it's tougher to discern at the lower resolutions.  I have posted a picture (and the link) to the 1953 aerial below:

http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=8E-06&lat=40.7531847061924&lon=-73.4585251279306&year=1953



From the 1953 image, you can tell that the trees on the left were a recent addition, so they probably were never the intent of the original design.  Based on this, I'm assuming that the original intent was to force the golfer to commit to a line based on his expected carry distance to avoid going through the fairway into the bunker.  Given the number of diagonal landing areas around the rest of the property (e.g. Bethpage #2), that would seem the most likely to me.

But, it would be interesting to consider whether there may have been fairway above the bunker (like your drawing) at some point.  Using Google Earth, it would take a substantial hit to reach that fairway in the days of hickory & persimmon (at least 250 carry - likely more). 

That would be a neat feature, but if that were intended, I would expect the green bunkering and slope to be reversed (i.e. you'd be rewarded with an easier approach if you pull off the diagonal carry to the far right fairway).  If that were the tradeoff, then the hole may be more like #5 on the Black.

Unfortunately, I think that the seeming "centerline / split fairway" design is really an afterthought resulting from the overzealous tree growth on the left side.  If they want to go this route, I think the right landing area needs to be enlarged much more (as it really is not much easier to hit than the left).  As it currently is set up, I think the best option is to hit a shot to the left in the 210-230 yard range, which is the widest part of the fairway (before the trees and hazard begin pinching), with all other options lagging far behind.

[Joe Bausch]

From Phil Young:

The 13th hole on Bethpage Red was not designed as a split fairway hole. Not only were the trees left not there, there wasn't any fairway left of the first large left bunker, but there was one to the right of it which was quite wide. It ran to the front right corner of the large fairway bunker and ended at that point. In other words, there was no fairway to the right of that bunker, but rather the fairway continued up the left side of it and ended at the top left corner of it. In effect this was a large, idagonal bunker that crossed the entire fairway. The fairway then continued on to the green past this fairway bunker. In effect then, by his use of the the fairway bunkers as planned, he made a masterful twisting fairway, a feature in many of his designed par-4s. You can clearly see this in the development plan.

[Kevin Lynch]

From Phil Young:

The 13th hole on Bethpage Red was not designed as a split fairway hole. Not only were the trees left not there, there wasn't any fairway left of the first large left bunker, but there was one to the right of it which was quite wide. It ran to the front right corner of the large fairway bunker and ended at that point. In other words, there was no fairway to the right of that bunker, but rather the fairway continued up the left side of it and ended at the top left corner of it. In effect this was a large, idagonal bunker that crsoosed the entire fairway. The fairway then continued on to the green past this fairway bunker. In effect then, by his use of the the fairway bunkers as planned, he made a masterful twisting fairway, a feature in many of his designed par-4s. You can clearly see this in the development plan.

Joe (& Phil),

Thanks for the historical information.  Based on what I see, the fairway to the right of the diagonal hazard was more of a "lay-up" zone, and never intended as an alternative from the tee.  What looks different to me is that the planned greenside bunkering didn't seem to be as unfriendly to an approach from this "lay up area" compared to what is currently on the ground.

Also, did they shift the tee more to the right over the years?  I thought I saw a tee in the 1953 aerial more to the left, but I couldn't be sure at that resolution.  It appeared like the development plan had the left bunker as more of a "cross hazard" rather than a "flanking hazard" (as it appears now).

[Kevin Lynch]

From Phil Young:

In effect then, by his use of the the fairway bunkers as planned, he made a masterful twisting fairway, a feature in many of his designed par-4s.

Bethpage is the one course that really that cemented the value of diagonal lading zones in my mind.  While many people are amazed by the scale of the course (which is inspiring), my main architectural takeaway from the course was the use of diagonals, adding a layer of interest to the tee shots beyond the normal "how far right or left of center can I miss it."

I just returned from a Pinehurst trip with Ron Montesano and two other non GCA-nerd types.  On the ride home we tried to engage in a little architectural discussion and what we usually look for from the tee.  Eventually, we were shut down with "I don't care about those things, I just focus on executing my swing.  You guys over-complicate things, when all you need to do is hit at the middle of the fairway and middle of the green."

A course like Bethpage would be difficult for this type of player, because the "middle" of the fairway is different for every player depending on their length.  This guy is a bigger hitter and I suspect he'd be frustrated after hitting through too many landing areas (which is the beauty of the design). 

Tying it back to the theme of this thread, this is also the same guy who stood on the tee of a well-designed centerline hazard / split fairway hole and exclaimed "What a stupid hole! You can hit a perfect drive down the middle and be in a bunker.'  Some people do NOT enjoy complexity.

[Mark Fedeli]

Kevin,

Looks like when I drew my picture I was thinking about the plan drawings that Joe helpfully posted. I added a bit much to that second fairway but I guess it was just to create a similar effect to what was in the plans. Either way, I agree that the bunker was definitely not meant to be carried. I also did draw the original planned location of the tee, but you have to scroll the image to see it.

Does anyone have a link to the 1938 aerial? I can't find it anywhere. There's only this one, which I'm told is not a photo but a model of some sort (regardless of what Bethpage's own website says): https://www.bethpageproshop.com/photos/1938AerialView.jpg. I'll have to photograph the one hanging in the clubhouse next time I'm there.

Here's a blown up 1953:



Blown up even further, you could also say there may have been some second fairway there, at least within the lines i drew below. The color/consistency of the grass certainly doesn't change as it swings back around:

[Michael Felton]

I'm glad this came up again. My thing with it is that there are basically six places you can hit it. Left trees, left fairway, center bunkers, right fairway, right rough or short of the center bunkers. Of those, the difficulty of the following shot from easiest to hardest is as follows:

left fairway
right fairway
right rough
short of the center bunkers
center bunkers
.
.
.
.
.
left trees

Of the fairway options, the ease of hitting each is in order:

short of the center bunkers
right fairway
left fairway

I always used to play short of the center bunkers, but I'd play it a little safe and then not focus and I ended up hitting 5 iron to the green all the time and it's offset against you and awkward, so I have dropped that option. So the best option is left fairway, but it's harder to hit than the right fairway and the risk of the left trees is pretty high. Hit it in there and you're playing a long third shot, virtually guaranteed. The right edge of the fairway as an aiming line gives me the safest set of options. I should hit either the fairway or the right rough. That rough is pretty light, so doesn't really hinder an approach shot all that much. Plus I hit my wedges pretty high, so that shot from out there can hold the green and worst case I have a chip or maybe a bunker shot.

Of course, with Mark's shot shape, hitting that right fairway is fairly hard and so I can certainly see how the left option works better for him. Takes all sorts.

[Mark Fedeli]

I'm glad this came up again. My thing with it is that there are basically six places you can hit it. Left trees, left fairway, center bunkers, right fairway, right rough or short of the center bunkers. Of those, the difficulty of the following shot from easiest to hardest is as follows:

left fairway
right fairway
right rough
short of the center bunkers
center bunkers
.
.
.
.
.
left trees

Of the fairway options, the ease of hitting each is in order:

short of the center bunkers
right fairway
left fairway

I always used to play short of the center bunkers, but I'd play it a little safe and then not focus and I ended up hitting 5 iron to the green all the time and it's offset against you and awkward, so I have dropped that option. So the best option is left fairway, but it's harder to hit than the right fairway and the risk of the left trees is pretty high. Hit it in there and you're playing a long third shot, virtually guaranteed. The right edge of the fairway as an aiming line gives me the safest set of options. I should hit either the fairway or the right rough. That rough is pretty light, so doesn't really hinder an approach shot all that much. Plus I hit my wedges pretty high, so that shot from out there can hold the green and worst case I have a chip or maybe a bunker shot.

Of course, with Mark's shot shape, hitting that right fairway is fairly hard and so I can certainly see how the left option works better for him. Takes all sorts.

 

Michael, since we agree that the far right rough is a better place to be than the sides of the left fairway, I was worried you wouldn't give me anything to chew on. But I take exception to one thing you said above: "the best option is left fairway, but it's harder to hit than the right fairway"

If we're taking trees completely out of the equation and talking purely about hitting fairway, all things equal, I still disagree that any part of the right fairway is any easier to hit than the left. I think it only looks easier from the tee. Let's say that, because of the difference in carry requirements and angles to the green, the average player would need to have 125yds from the right fairway to equal the ease of approach he'd have at 140yds from the left fairway. To achieve that equality on the right, he would need a much more heroic drive: higher, longer, more precise. To wit:



Knowing my game, it's probably also no surprise to you that in some cases I would prefer to hit a 140yd punch shot from beneath the left trees than a 140yd shot with height from the center sand. So, I would rank the trees regular last and not  .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   .   last.

[Michael Felton]

Ah but up the left, I'm aiming at the bit that's level with your target line on the right. At that point, that fairway is pretty darn narrow. And maybe it's just me, but a fairway that looks easier to hit normally is easier to hit if only for the psychological. I tense up when I aim down the left and frequently end up in those trees. There the rough is quite heavy and the trees hang down pretty low.

Having said all that, maybe there's some future in hitting to the wider shorter part of that left hand side. Might have to give that a go next time I'm there.

[Mark Fedeli]

Ah but up the left, I'm aiming at the bit that's level with your target line on the right. At that point, that fairway is pretty darn narrow. And maybe it's just me, but a fairway that looks easier to hit normally is easier to hit if only for the psychological. I tense up when I aim down the left and frequently end up in those trees. There the rough is quite heavy and the trees hang down pretty low.

Having said all that, maybe there's some future in hitting to the wider shorter part of that left hand side. Might have to give that a go next time I'm there.

oh, no doubt. you have the ability to carry it 260 in the air so that opens up more options for going right (as well as more options when missing right). my last bit was more about the average player who drives it a total of 240 or hits it low.

[Steven Blake]

I believe I read somewhere that Lawsonia Link's 13th had a split fairway in the area that is now large white pines. I always thought that would be interesting to restore that feature. 

Talking with some fellow Wisconsinites and was told that most if not all of the trees on #13 at Lawsonia Links have been cut down this winter.   Maybe my dream of restoring the double fairway is not so far fetched.

Steve Blake

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()