Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pinehurst Resort, 1976:  3 days + 2 nights lodging, meals incl., unlimited golf + 1 round on #2 = $110.00 pp

Pinehurst has a package right now where it is $222 pp per night.  The package is similar to the one you list (breakfast is the only included meal).  That's not much different than the 1976 price, adjusted for inflation.

Yes, I remember such an off-season deal from 2009, nice to see they are doing it again, but the 'package' I quoted was an in-season rate and that is approximately $1,300 plus  a $195.00 surcharge for #2.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I was thinking that the Pound is probably worth about half as much as it was in 1990.  Places like Troon (I seem to recall an £80 fee around 1991) and Sunningdale (the uber expensive UK clubs) are probably only a bit higher than inflation targets - its just that they started out very expensive.  As Tom notes, most clubs sussed out their value duting the 80s. While golf has become prohibitively expensive at some clubs, by and large I think UK green fees are in line with inflation. Ireland is a bit different - they went all paper tiger mad over there and more or less buggered themselves.  Serious greed took hold over there and not just in golf.  When I first played Bally Old it was 40 Irish quid (must be about 1994?).  By about 2008 the cost was about £160 - absolutely crazy increases.  Last year I paid about that but they threw in the Cashen free.  I seem to recall Dornoch too has accelerated their green fee structure in the past 10 years well beyond inflation.  I first played Dornoch for £40 maybe around 1997.  Last I looked they hit £100.  One club that has remained fairly steady is Burnham and Berrow.  They used to be quite expensive, charging £60 about 10 years ago.  The fee has only gone up to £75.  Its really one of the best bargains in England if you are looking for minor championship golf.  

Ciao  

Sean,

Agree about Ireland but whilst England in general has maybe maintained inflationary increases, I think Scotland has been almost as bad as Ireland at the top tier. Dornoch is currently £120... My examples of TOC and Carnoustie show the same massive hikes.

Membership was always (and still is) exceptional value in Scotland. But green fees no longer offer the same exceptional value at the top end.

I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong...

[Carl Rogers]

As an aside, this thread is telling me that you get only one chance (in most markets anywhere in the world) to create a good course.  The added cost of the re-do has to be made up or you go belly up.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I think you made a good point.

If someone has spent the money and booked a multi-day trip to Miami/Miami Beach, the differential between a $ 300 green fee and a $ 450 green fee won't be a deterant to playing Trump's course

That's true to a point, but it all adds up, especially when you consider the "wife tax".  I'm not married, but a married friend explained to me that whatever money he spends on himself he has to spend double that to keep his wife happy.  Or triple if his wife is already mad at him.

Doug,

Then your friend made a poor choice.
If someone has to spend money on his wife to make her happy, that's not what I would consider the solid basis for a mutually satisfying marriage.
And, how long before someone comes along who will spend more money on her ?

That extra $150 adds up pretty quickly if your wife is pissed that you were gone all day golfing and have to take her shopping on Ocean Drive to make up for it - you'll be lucky if she only spends $450

Extortion is never the basis for a good relationship.

Not long ago, I was randomly paired with a young fellow who, not long into the round, told me that he was recently divorced from a very attractive woman.  I asked him what led to the divorce.  He said, "high maintenance and the fact that the extreme effort that he had to put into making her happy, was making him unhappy, and that he didn't want to go through life that way, and, that he saw the situation as one that would only get worse."

Remind your friend about "The Subway Theory"

And, if there are no children, to "Run Forest, run."

[Kevin_D]

Prices are all relative.

Miami Beach Golf Club, which is not a very good course, is $200.

The Biltmore, which is better, though not outstanding (and annoyingly makes you take a cart in the morning), is $229.

Most hotels are $500+ per night in peak season.

I'll be in Miami in February, and plan/hope to check the Blue at Trump Doral while I'm there.  I love Hanse and can't wait to see what he's done there (though haven't been to the course before the renovation).

It's expensive for sure, but not so far out there that I'm not willing to give it a try.  I would imagine there are a fair number of potential customers in my boat.

[John Kavanaugh]

Trump loves publicity.  Anyone who can help him will play for free.  This time next year we will get plenty of feedback.  As has been mentioned before people who don't get comped will write it off because of a conference.  Cost is not relevant on this site.

As a matter of fact as taxes go up the implied cost of rounds go down.

[Buck Wolter]

If the courses are full it is not the owners fault. The golfers who pay these high prices when less trendy or perfectly conditioned options are available are the cause of the inflation. The true greed lays at the feet of those who post the most pictures on Facebook. You not only harm yourself you hurt those who play just for the love of the game. The vain game ain't cheap, never was.

But the visiting golfers do not force the owners to increase their prices. As the Irish case proves greedy owners putting up prices to muc will pay in the end when the next best place comes along.

Jon

When Mike Keiser raises prices it has very little to do with greed.  If golf at Bandon was $50 per round very few of us would get to play and when we did it would be miserable.  This is the same with any course that allows public play.  The only legal and moral way to discriminate is through price.  Do we really want to enter a lottery for the right to play wherever we choose?  That will only lead to corruption and scalping of tee times where everyone except the corrupt suffer.

When i lived in Slovakia not long after the wall fell you could ski for the day for about $1 but you were lucky to get a run an hour because the lift lines were so long. My Slovak colleagues were appalled when I suggested they really needed to raise prices. Sometimes things used to be too cheap rather than now being too expensive.

Buck,

the other alternative is just to sell so many tickets and then say that's it. It is a case of deciding what the quality of your product is worth and charging that for it. If demand is high then you have a full house but the danger with over charging is like the Irish found people quickly get fed up and find somewhere else. Though I understand where John is coming from using price as the only way of controlling play is not so smart. One thing for sure Mike Kaiser set his prices based on a broad range of criteria.

Jon

Jon-
I believe golf course pricing is one of the more complex things you could analyze in economics --sort of like airlines as you have this huge asset and empty seats/tee times will obviously hurt your bottom line but you don't want people paying full-fare to find out the guy next to them is paying half what they are. The key is to maximize what each consumer is willing to bear -- if you want an 8 am tee time on a Saturday that's like a business class seat, better be a full fare or a frequent flier. I think the ultimate way rather than a lottery would be an auction, that way each tee time gets the absolute maximum, why should a golf course operator or an airline or any other business sell a product for less than someone is willing to pay? The only reason I can think is to keep competitors from entering the market. Most of the time when you price something below market you get the scalping John talks about where someone trades their excess time and resells to someone with more money than time ---musicians did this for eons and gave much of their profits to scalpers, most of them have finally wised up and started charging much more for good seats.

Buck

[BCowan]

Mr Mucci

     Your post cracked me up, you sound like your agreeing with my ''burger theory''!  

Ally

Membership was always (and still is) exceptional value in Scotland. But green fees no longer offer the same exceptional value at the top end.

    That can be said for Pine Needles and Mid Pines, when they were resort courses they got around $75 a round in prime time 15 years ago, now that they have members they can charge $175-225 in prime season, but a membership there is one of the best deals i have seen for two very high quality tracks! --- If i ever get to visit Scotland it would be hard to leave!

[Thomas Dai]

Membership was always (and still is) exceptional value in Scotland. But green fees no longer offer the same exceptional value at the top end.

Perhaps given the VAT rebate news on the other current thread if we can expect to see greenfees drop by 20%? Anyone holding their breath? (sic!)
ATB

[Bob_Huntley]

In 1963 I played Pebble Beach for the very first time. The Green fee was something like $7.50 and the caddie $10.00, or it could have been the other way around. I stood on the 18th green and looked around and vowed I would live and die there.

I have called Neil Hoteling the historian for all things Pebble Beach to confirm my recollection, of course I could be wrong.

Bob

Neil Hoteling called me and said it was the other way around.

Bob

[Jon Wiggett]

Buck,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. IMO people know when they are being over charged and resent it even if they are willing to pay it. Should the market place change then.....

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jon,

I don't know that Trump got to where he's at because he made uninformed or Ill advised decisions.

I'm fairly sure that he studied and understands the local market and his customer, existing and potential.
Doral and Trump WPB are almost adjacent to their respective airports.
That can be a big advantage to travelers.
With the "hotel" aspect of Doral, that makes it a good destination.
Imagine if a major airport was 1,000 yards from Streamsong, do you think that they'd get more travelers visiting ?

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he makes additional forays into South Florida in the near future.

AND, it wouldn't surprise me if, five or ten years from now it's not TRUMP at Streamsong.

[Tim Martin]

Jon,

I don't know that Trump got to where he's at because he made uninformed or Ill advised decisions.

I'm fairly sure that he studied and understands the local market and his customer, existing and potential.
Doral and Trump WPB are almost adjacent to their respective airports.
That can be a big advantage to travelers.
With the "hotel" aspect of Doral, that makes it a good destination.
Imagine if a major airport was 1,000 yards from Streamsong, do you think that they'd get more travelers visiting ?

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if he makes additional forays into South Florida in the near future.

AND, it wouldn't surprise me if, five or ten years from now it's not TRUMP at Streamsong.

Whether you like Trump or not it's obvious he has a big set of balls when it comes to taking risks and using leverage. It seems like an inherent quality for those that strike it rich in the real estate investment/development business. I really think people need to get past any personal bias and take a look at what he has accomplished both in golf and otherwise.

[BCowan]

98' Played #2 in June it was $150 with a member and it was year before 99' US Open.  Don't know what it is with member now, but it is $500 unaccompanied i believe in peak.  I loved that post on an earlier trend with green fees in 76'.  

[Jon Wiggett]

TRUMP

[Mark Chaplin]

Bob if the fees had remained at the same proportion a Pebble Beach caddie would be a rich man indeed!

[Sean_A]

Well, Royal Aberdeen is the 8th course to hit the red zone.  The red zone is littered with courses I really like and think are wonderful designs, but wouldn't dream of paying the going freight - not even for a special reason. I wonder if the red zone number will hit 10 for 2014. Jeez, and golfers complain when the game gets labelled as elitist.  To be fair, is there a better one word description?

Can anybody guess the other 7 in the red zone?  With the exception of one course, they are all in GB&I.  

Ciao

[BCowan]

Jon

    what are you saying?  Should someone dictate what a round of Golf should be at Doral?  It was high before Trump bought it.  Does it matter if it is $250 or $500?  When you get to those numbers it is all funny money.  I find it very ironic what the greens fees were in the 60's and early 70's. 

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Trump, Muirfield, RSG, Turnberry, Troon, Birkdale and Hoylake?

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

    what are you saying?  Should someone dictate what a round of Golf should be at Doral?  It was high before Trump bought it.  Does it matter if it is $250 or $500?  When you get to those numbers it is all funny money.  I find it very ironic what the greens fees were in the 60's and early 70's. 

I am not saying anything. I never mentioned Trump it was one of his lackeys who brought him up. I agree with you about once the figure reaches a certain amount it is all funny money.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Trump, Muirfield, RSG, Turnberry, Troon, Birkdale and Hoylake?

Canary

Not a bad effort, 1 fer.  Hoylake and Aberdeen are ticked off.

You drifted off onto the Blue List with Muirfield, Turnberry, Birkdale and Troon. The blue list are courses which would be nice to play again, but I have long since given up on checking the green fees   (there are two more very preditable courses which make the list).  

Trump - meh - great course, but I think they got it all wrong.  Not much interest in looking again unless its a bargain.

Sandwich - I love the course and could see myself being persuaded by the right people to pay full whack, but it would certainly be a weak moment for me  .

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

I was thinking that the Pound is probably worth about half as much as it was in 1990.  Places like Troon (I seem to recall an £80 fee around 1991) and Sunningdale (the uber expensive UK clubs) are probably only a bit higher than inflation targets - its just that they started out very expensive.  As Tom notes, most clubs sussed out their value duting the 80s. While golf has become prohibitively expensive at some clubs, by and large I think UK green fees are in line with inflation. Ireland is a bit different - they went all paper tiger mad over there and more or less buggered themselves.  Serious greed took hold over there and not just in golf.  When I first played Bally Old it was 40 Irish quid (must be about 1994?).  By about 2008 the cost was about £160 - absolutely crazy increases.  Last year I paid about that but they threw in the Cashen free.  I seem to recall Dornoch too has accelerated their green fee structure in the past 10 years well beyond inflation.  I first played Dornoch for £40 maybe around 1997.  Last I looked they hit £100.  One club that has remained fairly steady is Burnham and Berrow.  They used to be quite expensive, charging £60 about 10 years ago.  The fee has only gone up to £75.  Its really one of the best bargains in England if you are looking for minor championship golf.  

Ciao  

Sean:

I'm sure that a lot of these pricing moves have to do with what the neighbors are charging.  Royal Dornoch, for example, has to think it's okay to raise their rates as long as they are still less than Castle Stuart, and a better course.  Before Castle Stuart was built, there was no other course in the neighborhood that charged anywhere near as much, which kept their green fees low.  Burnham is still in that position.

Exactly! The same thing has happened with the St Andrews courses because of Kingsbarns... and now the Aberdeen area courses will follow Trump's lead. It's the "Pebble Beach Effect."

[Jon Wiggett]

I was thinking that the Pound is probably worth about half as much as it was in 1990.  Places like Troon (I seem to recall an £80 fee around 1991) and Sunningdale (the uber expensive UK clubs) are probably only a bit higher than inflation targets - its just that they started out very expensive.  As Tom notes, most clubs sussed out their value duting the 80s. While golf has become prohibitively expensive at some clubs, by and large I think UK green fees are in line with inflation. Ireland is a bit different - they went all paper tiger mad over there and more or less buggered themselves.  Serious greed took hold over there and not just in golf.  When I first played Bally Old it was 40 Irish quid (must be about 1994?).  By about 2008 the cost was about £160 - absolutely crazy increases.  Last year I paid about that but they threw in the Cashen free.  I seem to recall Dornoch too has accelerated their green fee structure in the past 10 years well beyond inflation.  I first played Dornoch for £40 maybe around 1997.  Last I looked they hit £100.  One club that has remained fairly steady is Burnham and Berrow.  They used to be quite expensive, charging £60 about 10 years ago.  The fee has only gone up to £75.  Its really one of the best bargains in England if you are looking for minor championship golf.  

Ciao  

Sean:

I'm sure that a lot of these pricing moves have to do with what the neighbors are charging.  Royal Dornoch, for example, has to think it's okay to raise their rates as long as they are still less than Castle Stuart, and a better course.  Before Castle Stuart was built, there was no other course in the neighborhood that charged anywhere near as much, which kept their green fees low.  Burnham is still in that position.

Exactly! The same thing has happened with the St Andrews courses because of Kingsbarns... and now the Aberdeen area courses will follow Trump's lead. It's the "Pebble Beach Effect."

Michael,

from a locals point of view you are so wrong.

Jon

[Michael Whitaker]

Jon - the proof is in the pudding. Wrong about what... the reason for the increases? Check the rate at TOC, for example, and how much it changed just two or three years after KB opened.

[Chris_Blakely]

In 2001, I walked Bethpage Black for $33 as a state resident.  In 2002 (before the open), I walked aging for $17 (twilight).

It is now $65 for residents regular rates and $35 for twilight.

Non-resident fees are $130.

But, as was mentioned earlier, the course has hosted two US Opens.

Chris