Courses that have had green fees rise exponentially

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I'm going to let you off the hook and protect you from yourself, unless you like playing Russian Roulette with 5 bullets in the chamber.

Don't respond, nothing good can come of it.

[Howard Riefs]

Between 2010 and 2011, Erin Hills raised its greens fees 25% from $160 to $200.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/01/erin-hills-is-it-worth-the-new.html

[Bob_Huntley]

In 1963 I played Pebble Beach for the very first time. The Green fee was something like $7.50 and the caddie $10.00, or it could have been the other way around. I stood on the 18th green and looked around and vowed I would live and die there.

I have called Neil Hoteling the historian for all things Pebble Beach to confirm my recollection, of course I could be wrong.

Bob

[Dan Kelly]

In 1963 I played Pebble Beach for the very first time. The Green fee was something like $7.50 and the caddie $10.00, or it could have been the other way around. I stood on the 18th green and looked around and vowed I would live and die there.

Just to add a data point:

Played Pebble for the first (and likely last) time in June 1986, the week of the U.S. Open at Shinnecock.

Green fee was $110, plus $15 for a cart. (I was the first one off the tee that day. No caddies had yet arrived. I believe the fee for a caddie, which I would have taken, would also have been $15.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

I could have bought Manhattan for under $ 30

[John Kavanaugh]

I could have bought Manhattan for under $ 30

See how much funnier you can be when you don't write three paragraphs.

[Dan Kelly]

I could have bought Manhattan for under $ 30

You could have bought it for under $25!

[Jim_Kennedy]

I could have bought Manhattan for under $ 30

You would have been taken. The Canarsie tribe that sold Manhattan to Minuit didn't even own it, nor did they live there. He then had to buy part of the island from tribes who lived around Washington Heights. But the kings of real estate swindles were the Raritan tribe, they 'sold' Staten Island a half dozen times.  

So I guess the Native tribes of that era, and Trump today, have a lot in common.  

[Steve Lapper]

I could have bought Manhattan for under $ 30

You would have been taken. The Canarsie tribe that sold Manhattan to Minuit didn't even own it, nor did they live there. He then had to buy part of the island from tribes who lived around Washington Heights. But the kings of real estate swindles were the Raritan tribe, they 'sold' Staten Island a half dozen times.  

So I guess the Native tribes of that era, and Trump today, have a lot in common.  

After those sales, the Raritan people then moved the balance of the tribe to New Jersey where they were then insured by the Mucci tribe…….classic!!

[Bill Seitz]

Last time I played Torrey Pines South was probably 1997-1998.  As a non-resident walk-on, I paid $45.  Today, it's $183 weekday, $229 Fri-Sun.

[Mark Chaplin]

Is Sebonak's the first premium ever charged because of a ladies sporting event? What are the crowds at the ladies Super Bowl or tennis finals? I know corporate hospitality for Wimpledon finals is 1/3 the price for the ladies over the men's.

When I asked a long term member of a fine 3 course club if the members were excited about the ladies open he said most were out of town as it held zero interest to them.

[Buck Wolter]

If the courses are full it is not the owners fault. The golfers who pay these high prices when less trendy or perfectly conditioned options are available are the cause of the inflation. The true greed lays at the feet of those who post the most pictures on Facebook. You not only harm yourself you hurt those who play just for the love of the game. The vain game ain't cheap, never was.

But the visiting golfers do not force the owners to increase their prices. As the Irish case proves greedy owners putting up prices to muc will pay in the end when the next best place comes along.

Jon

When Mike Keiser raises prices it has very little to do with greed.  If golf at Bandon was $50 per round very few of us would get to play and when we did it would be miserable.  This is the same with any course that allows public play.  The only legal and moral way to discriminate is through price.  Do we really want to enter a lottery for the right to play wherever we choose?  That will only lead to corruption and scalping of tee times where everyone except the corrupt suffer.

When i lived in Slovakia not long after the wall fell you could ski for the day for about $1 but you were lucky to get a run an hour because the lift lines were so long. My Slovak colleagues were appalled when I suggested they really needed to raise prices. Sometimes things used to be too cheap rather than now being too expensive.

[Bruce Katona]

Pat: ....and we all could (should) have bought Microsoft and Apple on the IPO and been discussing this topic over mai tai's under the Banyon Tree in Lahina...so be it.

We all should have been that smart!

Steve L: So you earned your real estate bones interning for the Raritan Tribe after graduating from Wharton?

[Jim Nugent]

Last time I played Torrey Pines South was probably 1997-1998.  As a non-resident walk-on, I paid $45.  Today, it's $183 weekday, $229 Fri-Sun.

IIRC, when I played Torrey, in 1970, it cost $5. 

[Greg Tallman]

As Patrick touched on the difference bewteen 300 and 450 is very minimal in reality. The guys willing to pay $300 to play "the place" is going to pay $450 as well. Most of them anyway.

Famous Course? Check
PGA Tour Event for caché? Check
Redesigned by "today's best"? Check (ish)... Hanse, Doak & Coore all qualify IMO
Great Address? Check
Great Surroundings? Check
Great Winter Weather? Check

I would guess that Trump had to be swayed to keep it under $500. And he's right. I am sure the Trump Monster will thrive.

[jeffwarne]

As Patrick touched on the difference bewteen 300 and 450 is very minimal in reality. The guys willing to pay $300 to play "the place" is going to pay $450 as well. Most of them anyway.

Famous Course? Check
PGA Tour Event for caché? Check
Redesigned by "today's best"? Check (ish)... Hanse, Doak & Coore all qualify IMO
Great Address? Check
Great Surroundings? Check
Great Winter Weather? Check

I would guess that Trump had to be swayed to keep it under $500. And he's right. I am sure the Trump Monster will thrive.

Great surroundings? Not so much..yikes

[Greg Tallman]

As Patrick touched on the difference bewteen 300 and 450 is very minimal in reality. The guys willing to pay $300 to play "the place" is going to pay $450 as well. Most of them anyway.

Famous Course? Check
PGA Tour Event for caché? Check
Redesigned by "today's best"? Check (ish)... Hanse, Doak & Coore all qualify IMO
Great Address? Check
Great Surroundings? Check
Great Winter Weather? Check

I would guess that Trump had to be swayed to keep it under $500. And he's right. I am sure the Trump Monster will thrive.

Great surroundings? Not so much..yikes

Great night life and other activites is what I was going for with "surroundings" - so you do not like airport runways?

[jeffwarne]

As Patrick touched on the difference bewteen 300 and 450 is very minimal in reality. The guys willing to pay $300 to play "the place" is going to pay $450 as well. Most of them anyway.

Famous Course? Check
PGA Tour Event for caché? Check
Redesigned by "today's best"? Check (ish)... Hanse, Doak & Coore all qualify IMO
Great Address? Check
Great Surroundings? Check
Great Winter Weather? Check

I would guess that Trump had to be swayed to keep it under $500. And he's right. I am sure the Trump Monster will thrive

Great surroundings? Not so much..yikes

Great night life and other activites is what I was going for with "surroundings" - so you do not like airport runways?

Got it-good "other" activities
  I remember losing 1/3 of every lesson to jet noise on certain landing pattern days
then there was the time I inquired about a rental on the reasonably decent looking apartment complex overlooking the old white course and two different people came in to report their car stolen....

actually I used to escape to Miami springs and play the old Ross there. almost across the street from the airport, but good old bones

[Jon Wiggett]

If the courses are full it is not the owners fault. The golfers who pay these high prices when less trendy or perfectly conditioned options are available are the cause of the inflation. The true greed lays at the feet of those who post the most pictures on Facebook. You not only harm yourself you hurt those who play just for the love of the game. The vain game ain't cheap, never was.

But the visiting golfers do not force the owners to increase their prices. As the Irish case proves greedy owners putting up prices to muc will pay in the end when the next best place comes along.

Jon

When Mike Keiser raises prices it has very little to do with greed.  If golf at Bandon was $50 per round very few of us would get to play and when we did it would be miserable.  This is the same with any course that allows public play.  The only legal and moral way to discriminate is through price.  Do we really want to enter a lottery for the right to play wherever we choose?  That will only lead to corruption and scalping of tee times where everyone except the corrupt suffer.

When i lived in Slovakia not long after the wall fell you could ski for the day for about $1 but you were lucky to get a run an hour because the lift lines were so long. My Slovak colleagues were appalled when I suggested they really needed to raise prices. Sometimes things used to be too cheap rather than now being too expensive.

Buck,

the other alternative is just to sell so many tickets and then say that's it. It is a case of deciding what the quality of your product is worth and charging that for it. If demand is high then you have a full house but the danger with over charging is like the Irish found people quickly get fed up and find somewhere else. Though I understand where John is coming from using price as the only way of controlling play is not so smart. One thing for sure Mike Kaiser set his prices based on a broad range of criteria.

Jon

[David Davis]

Well, I wasn't born when most of this was happening 

Here in NL golf is quite reasonably prices. Especially members dues and fees of the top clubs.

one club in particular built a multi million new club house with a marina, marble floors etc etc. Raised the green fee 2x without improving the course at all.

Went bankrupt a year later. 80 euro green fees for a pay and play course here is too much.

[Greg Tallman]

As Patrick touched on the difference bewteen 300 and 450 is very minimal in reality. The guys willing to pay $300 to play "the place" is going to pay $450 as well. Most of them anyway.

Famous Course? Check
PGA Tour Event for caché? Check
Redesigned by "today's best"? Check (ish)... Hanse, Doak & Coore all qualify IMO
Great Address? Check
Great Surroundings? Check
Great Winter Weather? Check

I would guess that Trump had to be swayed to keep it under $500. And he's right. I am sure the Trump Monster will thrive

Great surroundings? Not so much..yikes

Great night life and other activites is what I was going for with "surroundings" - so you do not like airport runways?

Got it-good "other" activities
  I remember losing 1/3 of every lesson to jet noise on certain landing pattern days
then there was the time I inquired about a rental on the reasonably decent looking apartment complex overlooking the old white course and two different people came in to report their car stolen....

actually I used to escape to Miami springs and play the old Ross there. almost across the street from the airport, but good old bones

Mel Reese GC?

[jeffwarne]

Greg,
Miami springs Golf Club.
Was off of 36th street down on the north side of the airport,but far enough north (2-3 blocks) where you couldn't see the airport-was heavily treed but a tornado went through there and destroyed about a 200 yard wide swath in the late 90's and opened up a lot of "views" from the area around it making it far less desireable to play.
Lots of history there-not in good condition but was always an uncrowded escape with all the trees (which in this case were a very good thing)

I had a client from New York who would stay in a cheap hotel down the street, I would pick him up at his hotel, we'd pay $20 bucks to play all day(as opposed to $300 at Doral) there and he'd pay full hourly rate for his lessons(often 40-60 hours in a week)-from a suitcase
McLean always looked at me funny when I handed him his cut in cash  (but it at least explained where I'd been)

[Joe_Tucholski]

Pinehurst Resort, 1976:  3 days + 2 nights lodging, meals incl., unlimited golf + 1 round on #2 = $110.00 pp

Pebble Beach, 1976:  $25.00.

The 'buying power' of one dollar in 1976 is roughly equal to $4.10 today. PB 'should' cost $102.40 today.    

Pinehurst has a package right now where it is $222 pp per night.  The package is similar to the one you list (breakfast is the only included meal).  That's not much different than the 1976 price, adjusted for inflation.

Do we really want to enter a lottery for the right to play wherever we choose?  That will only lead to corruption and scalping of tee times where everyone except the corrupt suffer.

A lottery seems to work pretty well at The Old Course...which admittedly has also raised the price significantly (but not as much as they could I’m sure).

[Doug Siebert]

Jeff,

I think you made a good point.

If someone has spent the money and booked a multi-day trip to Miami/Miami Beach, the differential between a $ 300 green fee and a $ 450 green fee won't be a deterant to playing Trump's course

That's true to a point, but it all adds up, especially when you consider the "wife tax".  I'm not married, but a married friend explained to me that whatever money he spends on himself he has to spend double that to keep his wife happy.  Or triple if his wife is already mad at him.

That extra $150 adds up pretty quickly if your wife is pissed that you were gone all day golfing and have to take her shopping on Ocean Drive to make up for it - you'll be lucky if she only spends $450

[Tom_Doak]

I was thinking that the Pound is probably worth about half as much as it was in 1990.  Places like Troon (I seem to recall an £80 fee around 1991) and Sunningdale (the uber expensive UK clubs) are probably only a bit higher than inflation targets - its just that they started out very expensive.  As Tom notes, most clubs sussed out their value duting the 80s. While golf has become prohibitively expensive at some clubs, by and large I think UK green fees are in line with inflation. Ireland is a bit different - they went all paper tiger mad over there and more or less buggered themselves.  Serious greed took hold over there and not just in golf.  When I first played Bally Old it was 40 Irish quid (must be about 1994?).  By about 2008 the cost was about £160 - absolutely crazy increases.  Last year I paid about that but they threw in the Cashen free.  I seem to recall Dornoch too has accelerated their green fee structure in the past 10 years well beyond inflation.  I first played Dornoch for £40 maybe around 1997.  Last I looked they hit £100.  One club that has remained fairly steady is Burnham and Berrow.  They used to be quite expensive, charging £60 about 10 years ago.  The fee has only gone up to £75.  Its really one of the best bargains in England if you are looking for minor championship golf.  

Ciao  

Sean:

I'm sure that a lot of these pricing moves have to do with what the neighbors are charging.  Royal Dornoch, for example, has to think it's okay to raise their rates as long as they are still less than Castle Stuart, and a better course.  Before Castle Stuart was built, there was no other course in the neighborhood that charged anywhere near as much, which kept their green fees low.  Burnham is still in that position.