Donald Ross- which is your favorite and why?

[Joe Leenheer]

I've played more Ross's then any other designer.

My top 5

1. Canton Brookside .....it's all that and a bag of chips
2. Scioto
3. Oak Hill (Fitchburg, MA) sentimental favorite as I got my start in the golf business there.
4. Pinehurst #2 (will be playing it again in 2014...will probably jump to #2...no pun)
T-5. Shaker Heights .....sleeper!
T-5 Wooster
T-5 Tippecanoe (got married on the range tee)
T-5 Inverness (looking forward to seeing it in 2014 post restoration)

I'm sure the rest of my Ross's would be T-5 as we'll....

[jim_lewis]

I have gone out of my way to play many Ross courses over the years. My favorite, hands down, is #2. The green complexes are in a class by themselves, and the player is presented with an endless number of choices, especially around the greens. It is tough without being punitive. I 40 years I remember losing one ball and never hitting it out-of-bounds. Hard to figure why it is so tough to score.

After #2, I offer the next group;
Seminole
Wannamoisette
Salem

Then there is:
Pine Needles
Holston Hills
Franklin Hills
Plainfield
East Lake

Let me count. I think that is 5. What an I leaving out??? Hard to include Scioto with all the changes.

[Mike Schott]

Since you're going to be in Detroit, if you have some time to kill, Rackham is a good and municipal Ross course that probably has more Ross in it than Oakland Hills.  Don't plan a trip around it, but it's a fun little muny that doesn't get all the publicity of the big private courses.  Franklin Hills in the Detroit area is also strong, if you can get on.

In Rochester, there is also probably more Ross left in Monroe and Country Club of Rochester than there is in Oak Hill East.  I really like them both.

You probably can't go wrong with the Ross designs in the Pinehurst/Southern Pines area.

It's been some time since I played Rackham but the course doesn't seem to have much Ross in it that I can see and the opening holes were completely changed years ago when I-696 was built. Maybe it's now in better shape than when I last played Also, be prepared for 5 hour rounds.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I have been fortumate to play all the big name Ross courses except Holston Hills.  It really is difficult to pick an absolute favorite because there is brilliance in so many ways.  Seminole is the greatest routing and use of land I have ever seen and played.  Pinehurst #2 is pure brilliance.  Plainfield has some beyond incredible holes.  Wannamoisset joins Seminole in use of land with the best start of his courses.  Rhode Island is under the radar but is flat out awesome.  Essex Fells and Siwanoy are often left out of the conversation because they neighbor some pretty famous courses.  Two courses were robbed of restoration of the year honors--CC of Buffalo and Barton Hills.  Having played Paramount quite a bit, I can say that a hell of a lot more restoration was needed and took place to return these courses to Ross glory.  Finally, I think CC of Buffalo may be his best--it has two beyond great short par 4's.  A steep fairly long uphill par 3 with a wild green that plays similar to a biarritz to climb the 6 foot false front.  And his most spectacular par 3--the volcano hole. Then he has a very reachable par 5 that necessitates risk on the tee shot for a solid approach. An unreachable par 5 that requires a well placed 2nd shot for a realistic approach.  The finish is as tough as any he designed--play 14-18 even par and you will feel like you aced an exam.  And the greens have as much movesent as anything Seminole, Oakland Hills, and Plainfield have to offer.  

[Matt Wharton]

I have often wondered how many courses that have Ross name on them were really done by him. He lived from 1872 to 1948 and designed golf courses everywhere, it wouldn't be easy to design all those courses today flying around in G4. It has always seemed illogical to me that given the travel restraints of the time that he could be have designed all those courses.

For me the question is less how many did he design originally - I think the number normally given is accurate, since he had a team for much of the time and did not necessarily visit all sites, but rather worked from topos.  The more significant question in my mind has to do with whether you can take one of those courses originally designed, but which has been much modified over the years and still call it a Ross course.  However, taking the liberty of calling any original-Ross course which still mostly resembles the original, my favorite by far is:

Carolina Golf Club (Charlotte), which happens to be my home club, is my favorite (not saying it's "the best," but just my favorite).  But keep in mind that, to my recollection, I've only played 13 Ross courses, 12 in North Carolina and one in South Carolina.  Why CGC - very playable for the higher handicappers, yet challenging for low handicappers, and a great routing on a small piece of land.

Prior to becoming the superintendent of Carolina Golf Club in 2005 I had previously played only two courses attributed to Donald Ross, Ridgefields CC in Kingsport, TN and the Old Course at Homestead Resort in Hot Springs, VA.  Since 2005 I have thoroughly enjoyed Carolina Golf Club countless times and enjoyed even more my Ross education on the following courses: Grove Park Inn (Asheville), Mimosa Hills CC (Morganton), Catawba CC (Newton), Charlotte CC, Myers Park CC (Charlotte), CC of Salisbury, Camden CC,  Pinehurst #2, Pine Needles, Mid-Pines and Southern Pines.  

What I love about Donald Ross is how the brilliance and mastery is in the simplicity.  There are no gimmicks, the challenge is all right there in front of you.  Several of these courses listed above have been renovated or restored, including Carolina to accommodate the length of the modern game, but what really gets me the most is when you play a course like Southern Pines or Catawba or Mimosa Hills or Camden from anywhere between 6200 to 6600 yards the resistance to scoring still holds up!  His courses are brilliantly routed and holes cleverly crafted along some of the most beautiful, natural topography I have ever seen and I truly love them all.

[Ian Andrew]

Essex Country Club

My reasons:

-It’s the most interesting grassing lines of all the courses that I have gone to see
-The greens are pushed out to the edges
-The collars often feed into the bunkers bringing the bunkers far more into play
-There are feeding slopes, repelling slopes, each has been identified
-Every slope matters!

-But it extends to the longer grasses too
-The extensive use creates great long views
-I love the use of fescue as accent as well as color and texture
-It’s presented in the foreground used as a backdrop and to transition out to trees on the perimeter

It’s an excellent set of lessons on why grassing lines are so important to how golf courses play

[Josh Tarble]

I love Pinehurst #2 and Scioto, but my favorite is the Ross course in French Lick. The old hill course has my favorite greens of anywhere I have ever played.

Glad you mentioned French Lick, Nigel.  I think it's rather unheralded (probably because it's hard to get to French Lick) but it's absolutely awesome!  As wild of a course as you can imagine.  Maybe a few strange holes that keep it off the very top of the charts, but overall it's a blast and really cool.  Some stuff I've never seen before or since.  And as you mentioned the greens are extremely good and varied.


I'm of course partial to my home course Broadmoor.  I think it had become so inundated with trees and the greens had shrunk so much that not many people noticed how good it was.  Fortunately several trees have been taken down and greens expanded to their original dimensions.  Nothing will really knock your socks off, but there isn't any bad either.  18 holes of really solid golf and maybe the best greens I've ever played.

[JNagle]

Robert mentions the CCB course so I thought we would post an aerial which just became available from Google Earth of the CCB course post restoration.  The course is as described and worthy of study and consideration as one of the better Ross in NY.  I withhold judgement because of a sentimental bias towards the course and our direct involvement.

July 2013


2011 prior to reconstruction

[Mark McKeever]

1. Aronimink
2. Charles River
3. Vesper
4. Salem
5. Shennecossett

[Josh Tarble]

The thing I find amazing is the fact that Ross was able to design so many of these courses...especially in an era when travel wasn't exactly easy. 

[Mac Plumart]

Here are my favorite Ross'.  For the record, I've yet to play a bad Ross.  They've all been quite good.

1--Pinehurst #2
2--Old Elm (Does that one count?)
3--Inverness
4--Seminole
5--Pine Needles
6--Holston Hills
7--Augusta CC
8--Mid-Pines

I'll stop there.

To me, Ross' routing is very good.  He uses natural features very well.  He defends his courses at the green better than almost anyone I've seen.  Piece this all together and he builds ideal golf courses almost every time...challenge for the scratch man, but playable for the hack.

[Phil Lipper]

I love Plainfield it is probably the most underrated golf course in the state. Its has a lot of good holes and most of the recent tinkering has been to bring back the original Ross concept

Misquamicut Club in Watch Hill has some spectacular holes along the water, and is a classic old New England Club

Mountain Ridge (Caldwell, NJ) is a really good Ross course that I dont think anyone mentioned

[BCowan]

1. Inverness (even with fazio holes, do not like the new renovations)(Paging Ron Prichard)
2. #2  (played in 98')
3. Mid Pines
4. Grosse Ile (MI, awesome ross greens)
5. Pine Needles
6. Tiffin Mohawk, Tiffin,OH (back 9 is ross)
7. Scioto (good course, not great)
8. Roseland Windsor,ON (Great Ross muni)
9. Barton Hills (played prior to renovation)

Planning on playing Franklin Hills, Holston Hills, Barton Hills (post renovation), Canton Brookside, Oakland Hills, Essex (Windsor), and Southern Pines next year.  Refuse to play Seminole due to allowing of 5 somes.  

[Mac Plumart]

Refuse to play Seminole due to allowing of 5 somes.

 

[Rob Curtiss]

Refuse to play Seminole...you have to accept the offer just for the fact that Hogan practiced for the Masters there..
I couldnt refuse...

[Brian Finn]

Refuse to play Seminole due to allowing of 5 somes.  

in my view, this is probably the most ridiculous thing ever said in this discussion group. 

[BHoover]

Refuse to play Seminole due to allowing of 5 somes.  

in my view, this is probably the most ridiculous thing ever said in this discussion group. 

I'd be happy to fill in if he's unable to make it due to conscientious objection.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

With SO MANY Ross courses, that's a difficult question to ask as very few, if any, have played all of his courses.
I wonder if anyone has.

But, for starters, based upon the one's I've played, I'd have to list:

Seminole
Mountain Ridge
Plainfield
Pinehurst # 2

As to a course/s to round out the list, let me give it more thought.

[Tim Martin]

Refuse to play Seminole due to allowing of 5 somes.  

in my view, this is probably the most ridiculous thing ever said in this discussion group.  

It's obvious you haven't read any of his other 153 pearls of wisdom.

[BCowan]

It is sad that one can't speak without being attacked by ''group thinkers''!  This is the last place I would think one wouldn't understand unwritten customs of golf.  but then again ''People don't do what they believe in, they do what's most convenient, then they repent''-Dylan.  I guess it is true that some just can't buy class.

[BHoover]

It is sad that one can't speak without being attacked by ''group thinkers''!  This is the last place I would think one wouldn't understand unwritten customs of golf.  but then again ''People don't do what they believe in, they do what's most convenient, then they repent''-Dylan.  I guess it is true that some just can't buy class.

I think we just assumed your comment about Seminole was a joke.  I know I did.  Frankly, I had no idea that 5-somes were an issue at any club, let alone Seminole.

[Sean_A]

I don't see a problem with setting standards for visiting clubs.  Its no skin off my nose if BCowan wants to skip Seminole.  

BCowan - after LuLu, Franklin Hills and Mid Pines, I would choose Grosse Ile as next favourite.  Man I wish the course was worked on a bit, the bones of an excellent course are there just waiting.

Ciao

[BCowan]

Sean A

   Yeah, Grosse Ile has awesome greens.  If they only turned off the sprinklers and cut down trees around the green.  Gotta play it again, only played it once.  On the to do list next summer. 

[BHoover]

How about adding your favorite Ross that, over time, has been altered and tweaked to the point where it seems to be a Ross in name only?  Or maybe the Ross that you most would like to see renovated/restored?

For me, I think I'd have to go with Scioto.  I really like it (hell, I listed it as one of my favorites), but I'd love to see it restored to its original Ross style.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

How much of Ross is left at Inverness ?