New Rye Grass Hybrids???

[Jason Thurman]

Carl, they were probably cutting it at "normal" height for zoysia, and that may indeed be the "best way" from an economic perspective. It's a grass that a lot of players really like because it feels full underfoot, gives nice lies, and forgives fat contact. I always forget how much like Velcro it plays though. It really sucks when you hit a low punch that you expect to bounce in to a green and watch it stop almost in its pitchmark.

Cut tight, though, it really does make a nice turf. It probably never plays as fast as firm bentgrass, but it can play as fast as Bermuda. It's just rare to play on tightly cut zoysia, but then, it's equally rare to play on fast and firm bentgrass or Bermuda in my part of the world.

[Brent Hutto]

One of the infuriating things at Northstone (my other experience with Zoysia was many years ago) was the tee shots. It was playing fairly firm but like firm Velcro. The first bounce of a driver shot would be like five feet high and five yards forward. Then it would stop within a foot of where it hit the second time.

Playing normally on Bermuda fairways, a ball either plugs where it first hits (if the course is sloppy wet and waterlogged) or if you get a big first bounce it'll end up 10, 15, 20 yards beyond the first landing spot.

And the other thing was the difference in a 5-iron shot that landed three yards short of the green which would tend to dig in and stop in the Zoysia versus one landed three yards onto the green which would run all the way to the back. It was like all day I was either chipping from a sticky lie just short of the green or chipping from a sticky lie just off the back of the green.

If I played a course like that every day I'd have to move up to the 5,500 yards tees just so I could hit an all-carry tee shot with the driver and then hit 8-irons and 9-irons into the greens so they'd hold. It's an awful surface for a hacker like me who a) doesn't particularly need a "cushion" under the ball but b) hit low-trajectory, spinless mid- and long-irons into most greens.

[Carl Johnson]

Jason, I've played a couple of zoysia courses in the Charlotte area and hated them because they weren't firm and fast - in fact, soft and slow - and I'm a high handicapper!  What you are telling me is that these courses aren't cutting short enough for the conditions I'd like.  Makes sense.  I guess I'd thought they were cut the "best way."

Carl,

Was one of them Northstone? I played there a couple months back and am pretty sure it was Zoysia. Infuriating stuff, when maintained like Northstone does it.

Correct, and the other was The Peninsula Club.  Obviously some like 'em that way, and some don't.

[Troy Fink]

There are many different varieties of zoysias with different textures which influences playability. Also, like Don mentioned, how it is cultivated will influence playability. Labeling them all the same way isn't telling the story accurately.  Overall, it's an excellent grass for the transition zone in terms of playability and survivabilty. Tends to be more expensive at installation, but the investment will save on fertilizer, chemicals, water (compared to cool season grasses), winter kill (compared to Bermuda), and mowing depending on circumstances.

Personally I like the playability of ryegrass even in a non-overseeded situation. It's versatile in terms of being able to mow it tight for fairways or tall for rough. Unlike zoysia, the different varieties don't vary much in their playability, so it's okay to lump them all together, that's perennial ryegrass and not annual ryegrass.  In a non overseed situation it's best suited for dry cool climates where disease stress is low, it likes water, so more drought tolerant grasses like fine fescue are considered. It's wear tolerance is very good. How it is cultivated will influence its playability as well.

Overall, labeling grasses one way or another in relation to playability and architecture depends on a lot of things. I encourage non turf nerds to be careful in assessing their value and try to understand the variables as much as possible.

[Joe Hancock]

In an unusual twist, I am going to differ with The Don. (gasp!)

I think rye grasses have improved. They have a finer blade texture, they are easier to cut than previous decades' versions, and they can be cut low. They don't require nearly the cultural attention that bentgrass does. It has a color that differentiates itself from bluegrass, fescues, and blends. I have also noticed synergistic health benefits to poa annua when it is in a stand together(which it most undoubtedly will be).

I want to use rye grass on a project sometime, just to see if I'm full of beans. One thing I do know; creeping bentgrass is great when it is maintained at a level that keeps thatch at bay, but there has been very few times I have seen that happen(other than on greens) and I think the verticutting/ aerification/ topdressing required is the issue. How do you do those things on a weekly or bi-weekly basis on anything but a private golf reserve? No membership or owner will tolerate the disruption, and rightly so.

So, I am less quick to poo poo the under-appreciated rye grass. It's no cure all, but it may have a place on golf courses in the right climate.

Joe

[BCowan]

It really sucks when you hit a low punch that you expect to bounce in to a green and watch it stop almost in its pitchmark.

    For ground game purposes, if you went with Zoysia for fairways a course can have bent around the green to benefit the ground game/run up shot to the green.  Sorry i didn't mention that, but i knew this might come up.  I know that Rye and Zoysia are sticky.  

Good to hear many version of Zoysia and rye's.  

One also has to take into account drainage and natural soil (if deep core aeration hasn't been performed) before slamming a grass type.  Take Mid Pines and Pine Needles two courses across the street from one another, and one drains much better than the other.  Haven't delved into why.  

[Randy Thompson]

BCowen,
    
Why all the talk on Zoyia, I don´t think that is a valid candidate for Michigan? Yes, ryegrasses have improved and are improving constantly but for me there still inferior to a good fescue and bluegrass mix. Bent is the most fragile and costly and if you so as much give it a dirty look, it stresses out. A great grass at a quarter of an inch but it takes a lot of care and cultural practices to maintain it above that height because of thatch build up and all the problems that come along with the thatch build up. Ryegrass just doesn´t seem to create a dense enough turf and deep enough root system for my liking and no stolens or rhizomes is also a negative attribute. If you have a pump problem or electrical or anything that leads to a prolonged dry period, its bye bye rye until the following spring when a percentage will return but not all. I have stopped using rye mixes for all the above reason and I am really happy with the results of a mix of fescues, creeping, chewing and fine about 50%-60% and add into that 30%-40% one of the new drought resistant bluegrasses such as Texas blue grass and then throw in ten percent ryegrass which aids in quicker establishment to lessen the erosion of the slower germinating fescues. Fall seeding gives better result than spring. Establishment time is slower but going into the second season you get an incredible dense surface that the ball really sits nice on and is consistent. I also see a big decline in the consumption of water and fertilizer and chemicals in general compared to all the other cool season grasses and when something goes wrong and the grass doesn´t get watered the recuperation is far superior with this mix. If you want I would be glad to send you some photos, just let me know your email address.

[SL_Solow]

Randy;  I am an admitted amateur but doesn't the part of Michigan matter?  If you go to the southwest part where courses like Lost Dunes and the Dunes Club are located, they generally get Chicago's weather about a half day to a full day later.  will the mixes you discussed work well there.  Go up to Traverse city where Crystal downs and Kingsley are located, its different.  Detroit area has its own issues.  I am with you on zoysia, I think Michigan is too far north at least until global warming changes everything.  But I believe there are numerous sub climates which may impact on the choice of grass.

[BCowan]

Mr Solow

     The Zoysia was brought up by the Cinci/Kentucky folks for their region.  Zoysia wasn't meant for Michigan.  You think there is much difference from SW and SE Michigan?  Maybe a little 3-4 degrees cooler on SW than SE.  Ann Arbor is about 4 degrees cooler than Metro Detroit.

[SL_Solow]

Ben;  I was replying to Randy who specifically referenced Michigan.  as for different climates, I think there is a greater difference up north than between my old stomping grounds in the SW portion than there is with Detroit

[BCowan]

Oh most defiantly, i believe they can have a higher rate of fescue up there.  I don't know what region Randy is a keeper in.  Have you played Battle Creek CC?--Fine Willie Park jr track...

[Randy Thompson]

You have three regions in the country, cool season región, transition región and warm season región. I do beleive the entire state of Michigan is classified as a cool season región. Fescues, ryegrass, bluegrasses and bentgrass are all cool season grasses. Zoysia is a warm season grass. Transition zones allow the possibility of growing both warm and cool season grasses but usually don´t support, ideal growing conditions for either warm season or cool season. Grass selection is first based on the región and then a ton of other factors such as soils, humidity, Budget, level of play ect.

[BCowan]

Randy i am aware.  Fescue fairways have been tried in N Michigan.  One didn't work due to golf carts.  N. Michigan is much cooler 10 degrees.  Top half of lower Michigan is mostly sand.  What area are you in with your fescue/creeping/blue mix?

[Randy Thompson]

Check your email box!

[Matt Neff]

BCowen,
    
Why all the talk on Zoyia, I don´t think that is a valid candidate for Michigan? Yes, ryegrasses have improved and are improving constantly but for me there still inferior to a good fescue and bluegrass mix. Bent is the most fragile and costly and if you so as much give it a dirty look, it stresses out. A great grass at a quarter of an inch but it takes a lot of care and cultural practices to maintain it above that height because of thatch build up and all the problems that come along with the thatch build up. Ryegrass just doesn´t seem to create a dense enough turf and deep enough root system for my liking and no stolens or rhizomes is also a negative attribute. If you have a pump problem or electrical or anything that leads to a prolonged dry period, its bye bye rye until the following spring when a percentage will return but not all. I have stopped using rye mixes for all the above reason and I am really happy with the results of a mix of fescues, creeping, chewing and fine about 50%-60% and add into that 30%-40% one of the new drought resistant bluegrasses such as Texas blue grass and then throw in ten percent ryegrass which aids in quicker establishment to lessen the erosion of the slower germinating fescues.

Completely agree that bent/fescue mixes are a great option in the appropriate climates.  Also agree that ryegrass isn't the best option for a golf course in a cool season grass region especially in the more southern areas of the cool season region as it gets literally every disease under the sun and is extremely susceptible to 2 of the worst diseases of cool season turf (pythium and gray leaf spot), is extremely thirsty and, for the most part, is a bunch type grass meaning it doesn't produce much lateral growth and therefore doesn't have the recuperative abilities of creeping bent or some of the bluegrasses.  However, there are some newer varieties that are stoloniferous and therefore have the abiltiy to creep (produce lateral growth) although I doubt they're even remotely as agressive as creeping bent but I don't have any experience with them.

Not to be overly picky but creeping bent does quite well at heights well above .250".  In my experience, most bent fairways are maintained between .375" (3/8") and .500" (maybe even slightly higher) and do quite well with routine thatch management practices.  It's also pretty durable and can withstand considerable stress (especially at fairway height) as long as it's not allowed to get too "fat and happy".  It's the Poa annua that'll take crap if you look at it wrong.  Not that bent won't go south on you sometimes especially in periods of high heat and humidity but it's still pretty tough especially if it's conditioned to be tough.

I think some of the low mow bluegrasses may be a decent option for a course that's looking to reduce fairway inputs.

[BCowan]

thanks Matt

    However, there are some newer varieties that are stoloniferous and therefore have the abiltiy to creep (produce lateral growth) although I doubt they're even remotely as agressive as creeping bent but I don't have any experience with them.

^^^Were you talking about rye hybrids?

I think some of the low mow bluegrasses may be a decent option for a course that's looking to reduce fairway inputs.

    Really?  Are those less prone to diseases like a traditional bluegrass??  Have you seen this at sod farms or grown any test patches in?  Bluegrass requires less water, but it can be disastrous if you look at it the wrong way?  Do you think the hybrids in rye, blue, and the rest are just getting so good?  

[Andrew Buck]

It's Rye grass.
Even if a seed company has managed to improve a little on all the previous improvements, it is still rye grass.
Bent, blue, and especially fescue are all superior cool season golf turfs, IMO.

I firmly believe rye grass makes for better fairways than bluegrass in northern climates.  Very few places utilize rye grass over bluegrass in the midwest, but I prefer the conditions on the ones that do.  

I also understand most Superintendents disagree with this statement. 

[Matt Neff]

  
Really?  Are those less prone to diseases like a traditional bluegrass??  Have you seen this at sod farms or grown any test patches in?  Bluegrass requires less water, but it can be disastrous if you look at it the wrong way?  Do you think the hybrids in rye, blue, and the rest are just getting so good?  

Yes, I was referring to ryegrasses.  

Just to clarify - I'm talking about Kentucy bluegrass (Poa pratensis) not annual bluegrass (Poa annua) - sorry, not trying to be the a-hole who drops Latin names to sound smart just want to make sure the difference is clear. As far as disease susceptibility in blue vs. rye - yes, bluegrass is less susceptible to most diseases especially dollar spot (the disease most frequently sprayed for in cool season turf), brown patch, and gray leaf spot.  The only thing that can be a major problem in Kentucky bluegrass is summer patch and it's no joke if you get it but I believe there are some resistant cultivars.

Not seen any test plots per se but I've seen bluegrass fairways at some public courses that aren't bad.  In fact, one of my professors in college talked about how several courses in Ohio switched to low mow Kentucky blue from rye after gray leaf spot became a major problem in the late 90's because it's such a devestating pathogen.  Make no mistake, it's no bentgrass but it's not bad.  I've never seen it in a higher maintenance regime.  Probably the best source of info would be the National Turfgrass Evaluation Program (NTEP) Trials.  The Chicago District Golf Association also did some research on this a few years ago.

The comment about "looking at it the wrong way" was in reference to annual bluegrass.

The advances in turfgrass genetics and breeding have been pretty amazing over the last 10-15 years so there are definitely a lot of solid options no matter what species you're looking at.

[Bill_McBride]

One of the infuriating things at Northstone (my other experience with Zoysia was many years ago) was the tee shots. It was playing fairly firm but like firm Velcro. The first bounce of a driver shot would be like five feet high and five yards forward. Then it would stop within a foot of where it hit the second time.

Playing normally on Bermuda fairways, a ball either plugs where it first hits (if the course is sloppy wet and waterlogged) or if you get a big first bounce it'll end up 10, 15, 20 yards beyond the first landing spot.

And the other thing was the difference in a 5-iron shot that landed three yards short of the green which would tend to dig in and stop in the Zoysia versus one landed three yards onto the green which would run all the way to the back. It was like all day I was either chipping from a sticky lie just short of the green or chipping from a sticky lie just off the back of the green.

If I played a course like that every day I'd have to move up to the 5,500 yards tees just so I could hit an all-carry tee shot with the driver and then hit 8-irons and 9-irons into the greens so they'd hold. It's an awful surface for a hacker like me who a) doesn't particularly need a "cushion" under the ball but b) hit low-trajectory, spinless mid- and long-irons into most greens.

Sounds like Hell would be zoysia fairways and kikuyu surrounds.......

[Ben Sims]

Most of the time, it's less about the grass and more about how we maintain it.

Waiting for the next Mahaffey post is like waiting for Jon Stewart's opening segment every night.  Rarely do I not nod my head in agreement while laughing at his superior skillset. 

[Randy Thompson]

Exactly Ben! Zoyia will be used throughout minus the Greens in the new Olympic course in Brazil. An excellent thick skinned grass in the right hands of somebody that knows how to maintain it! Not likely, they will spend the money they are spending with the world watching and choose an inferior grass or hire somebody that doesn´t no how to maintain it!

[Grant Saunders]

Can Browntop handle 85-90 deg July days in summer heat?  Is it more heat tolerant than Fescue?  How about humidity tolerant? Fungi's apps needed?

Our course is predominantly browntop and our summers are pretty dry and temps of 30 degrees celcius and higher are very common. We have some areas of pure fescue and for our site the browntop has comparable or even slightly better heat and drought tolerance. It certainly handles the traffic better in the heat than fescue.

As far as humidity and disease pressure, it is miles better than poa and in my experience also better than creeping bent. One of the key factors is the low fertility and water requirements. Both of those are big contributors to encouraging disease. Even fescue, which is known for low susceptibility to disease, would likely get wiped out from time to time if it received the levels of nutrients and water that other grasses supposedly need.

Ryegrass is pretty much one of the fastest growing species used which translates into lots of cutting and fertilising. No way I would use it if saving on maintenance was an objective.